to be graded and popped into slabs, where did aussie collectors get the
right and knowledge to grade their own coins?
Did they use and Australian system or American?
Quote from: 'lacey' pid='39819' dateline='1389935310'to be graded and popped into slabs, where did aussie collectors get the
right and knowledge to grade their own coins?
Did they use and Australian system or American?
As far as I am aware before NGC and PCGS were established in the US there wasn't a TPG in Australia and all our coins were ""self graded" either by dealers or collectors and there was quite a discrepancy in the standard and accuracy of grades given to coins.
The ANDA system was used almost exclusively before the Slabbed coins started to become available to collectors in this country.
OK thanks for your reply. So why don't we still do this. Why should we embrace their grading system and dump ours?
Quote from: 'lacey' pid='39830' dateline='1389945251'Why should we embrace their grading system and dump ours?
In a word,
greed. Both on the part of people who want to extract every cent they can from buyers, and crooks who want to rip people off. These two opposing forces provide the opening for a third greedy party, the 'independent' grader to milk both sides.
I don't think it is quite all about greed as much as it is about trustworthiness and accuracy.
If you are just greedy (and unethical), you 'self grade' as better than the coin actually is and rip people off without getting an expensive (but hopefully accurate) grading from someone else.
The bottom line is if you learn to grade you don't need a tpg and you won't get ripped off. If you don't learn to grade you get ripped of by paying to much for a coin that has been graded by someone who is telling you what you should be able to work out for yourself.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='39844' dateline='1389956087'The bottom line is if you learn to grade you don't need a tpg and you won't get ripped off. If you don't learn to grade you get ripped of by paying to much for a coin that has been graded by someone who is telling you what you should be able to work out for yourself.
Isn't the issue is that a TPG has no vested interest in the grade whereas the seller has a commercial interest....
It's not really about learning how to grade. I think most people on this site would have a good idea about how to grade.
coin grading is an art
I have been tutorship for many years now and only feel part of the way there
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='39844' dateline='1389956087'The bottom line is if you learn to grade you don't need a tpg and you won't get ripped off. If you don't learn to grade you get ripped of by paying to much for a coin that has been graded by someone who is telling you what you should be able to work out for yourself.
While partially true, this ignores that many sales are made without the purchaser ever seeing a coin for themselves.
Photos on ebay are often bad at showing a coins true condition.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='39844' dateline='1389956087'The bottom line is if you learn to grade you don't need a tpg and you won't get ripped off. If you don't learn to grade you get ripped of by paying to much for a coin that has been graded by someone who is telling you what you should be able to work out for yourself.
This completely ignores the other side of owning a coin. Selling it. Without an impartial third party grade you are subject to the whim of whoever you try to sell your coin to.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='39897' dateline='1390016901'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='39844' dateline='1389956087'The bottom line is if you learn to grade you don't need a tpg and you won't get ripped off. If you don't learn to grade you get ripped of by paying to much for a coin that has been graded by someone who is telling you what you should be able to work out for yourself.
This completely ignores the other side of owning a coin. Selling it. Without an impartial third party grade you are subject to the whim of whoever you try to sell your coin to.
Hear, hear Mark. The business model of some less than scrupulous dealers has been to understate the grade when buying, overstate it when selling. I have heard dealers actually admit that is the reason they are so much against reputable third party grading.
We can just hope that soon this business model will be obsolete.
Interesting.
I have heard of NCG ( I think it is) and that they aren't very good. Do you all think this? Isn't it time someone in this country started up their own TPG? I would be willing to give them a go, as it's so expensive to send coins to USA. And then, I get told the paper work to fill in is a pain in the butt.
trout is sending some of his to NCG
I think it's a bit K-mart Vs target ; woollies vs Coles and so on
Myers vs David Jones and so on
Quote from: 'lacey' pid='39957' dateline='1390090460'Interesting.
I have heard of NCG ( I think it is) and that they aren't very good. Do you all think this? Isn't it time someone in this country started up their own TPG? I would be willing to give them a go, as it's so expensive to send coins to USA. And then, I get told the paper work to fill in is a pain in the butt.
But a TPG has been started in Australia. APCGS.:dodgy:
I even looked up PCGS coins on US fleabay today and up came a number of Aussie coins, they were listed as "A PCGS". Item 1411167699397, seller cardsparadise, feedback 6742 and 100%
Worse yet down in the item specifics section they had even dropped the "A" so it was now a PCGS coin with a CAC label!
That sort of utter crap is why the top tier TPGs are necessary. Not that they are perfect, there was a NGC MS67 shilling on US eBay that has obvious multiple bag marks and should be no higher than MS65 (or lower).
MS45? Haha
IF a Reliable, Honest, Accurate and Viable TPG was established in Australia I would certainly use its services .
However this is yet NOT the case and that APCGS mob is quite frankly at best a laughing stock or at worst Simply a bunch of crooks trying to emulate PCGS (Even their name is deceiving ) overgrading their own coins and trying to pass them off as Honestly graded and slabbed coins, The same as some shonky dealers doing the same with 2x2's but these are in a fancy slab.
IF you insist on buying The APCGS slabs then you may as well buy all your coins from Peter Wallace, Both have the same degree of accuracy in the grading and at least the coins are nice and clean/shiny :laugh2:
I'll stick to PCGS and NGC at the moment because there is NO other alternative :ok:
The Australian system never used to be that bad, it only really started to deteriorate the last few years which is why PCGS was so successful.
One of the causes was the bullish nature of the market from 2000-2008 which took a lot of the good coins off the market encouraging dishonest dealers to "make" new good coins to satisfy demand.
The other is the rise of eBay which dealers just couldn't compete with so the dishonest ones resorted to overgrading and doctoring in order to maintain their profit margins.
Quotethe rise of eBay which dealers just couldn't compete with so the dishonest ones resorted to overgrading and doctoring in order to maintain their profit margins.
I imagine that quite a few of these "Dodgy Individuals" are STILL members of ANDA or are affiliates of that organization.
To me this a "Deplorable" state of affaires :ok:
I agree that before the advent of the internet 99% of dealers were reputable and honest, But as the "Net" grew and other options opened up for collectors ( Newsgroups were a trading option WAY before eBay) the "Old Guard" couldn't adapt and resorted to dishonest and deceitful practices.
I consider that the actions of these Inept and dishonest individuals are primarily responsible for the acceptance and need to have coins graded impartially and certified as genuine by a TPG.
I think it is totally shameful that a minority of dealers have destroyed the reputation of B+M Dealers as a group and the reliance on TPG's has become more prevalent as the years go by.
There ARE MANY reliable and Honorable B+M dealers out there But quite frankly they are hard to find.
I agree with that. There aren't any around me as far as I know.
I was buying raw coins of ebay sellers but a friend of mine started pointing out how bad some of the coins were and that's why I started buying PCGS slabbed coins. I don't think I have been disappointed more than 3 or 4 times, so now I just make sure if I can afford it to buy a higher grade.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='40358' dateline='1390630029'The Australian system never used to be that bad, it only really started to deteriorate the last few years which is why PCGS was so successful.
One of the causes was the bullish nature of the market from 2000-2008 which took a lot of the good coins off the market encouraging dishonest dealers to "make" new good coins to satisfy demand.
The other is the rise of eBay which dealers just couldn't compete with so the dishonest ones resorted to overgrading and doctoring in order to maintain their profit margins.
From what I understand the "doctoring" well preceeded ebay.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='40402' dateline='1390652126'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='40358' dateline='1390630029'The Australian system never used to be that bad, it only really started to deteriorate the last few years which is why PCGS was so successful.
One of the causes was the bullish nature of the market from 2000-2008 which took a lot of the good coins off the market encouraging dishonest dealers to "make" new good coins to satisfy demand.
The other is the rise of eBay which dealers just couldn't compete with so the dishonest ones resorted to overgrading and doctoring in order to maintain their profit margins.
From what I understand the "doctoring" well preceeded ebay.
Coin doctoring preceded Christianity.