I got a couple of coins back from PCGS they are uncirculated but came in the "Dreaded" Details grade, one is marked "Damage" and the other is marked "Cleaned".
What the heck do I do with these?
I can't crack them out and flog em on eBay as uncirculated coins because they have problems (I am struggling to see the damage or cleaning on them).
So what do you Mob do with these type of coins?
Interesting conundrum.! Will be interested in the replies from those who indulge.!!
Tricky to do anything with them and preserve your honour and principles. Me, I wouldn't have sent them off in the first place.
I think the best thing to do first would be to try to find why they were body-bagged - it'll help you avoid it in future. Maybe you can post photos up and we can help you find the reason.
QuoteMe, I wouldn't have sent them off in the first place.
Well I did and it is all part of a learning curve for me, I will probably make a few more "Blunders" before I get it down pat :blush:
I do have a perfect way to pass these on without destroying my honour, Integrity or the slabs and the coins will be Loved as well :)
I was just wondering what everyone else does with their "Mistakes" :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='35858' dateline='1385796040'I do have a perfect way to pass these on without destroying my honour, Integrity or the slabs and the coins will be Loved as well :)
Bottom of the well? ;) :diablo:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='35860' dateline='1385796674'Quote from: 'trout' pid='35858' dateline='1385796040'I do have a perfect way to pass these on without destroying my honour, Integrity or the slabs and the coins will be Loved as well :)
Bottom of the well? ;) :diablo:
NO God forbid.
These ARE nice coins and that would just be a waste.
I'm out about $100 on these and I am not crying about it (Well not anymore anyway :angel:) So instead of being dodgy and selling them I will give them to my Niece for Christmas, She is only 9 years old and is already a coin nut :yahoo:.
She will Love them and by the time she realises what they are she will be old enough to forgive me (I Hope).
Yep it depends on why the coin is bodybagged.
PCGS don't like coins with certain issues.
They hate planchet issues for example.
Planchet streaking is not uncommon in aussie bronze.
And is OK by aussie standards I think.
But PCGS will always downgrade streaky coins or even bodybag if its a flaw.
What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='35857' dateline='1385795922'I think the best thing to do first would be to try to find why they were body-bagged - it'll help you avoid it in future. Maybe you can post photos up and we can help you find the reason.
+1
Two people had to make the same decision on the coin for the grade to be reached.
Trout, are you able to post the PCGS cert numbers, or your images for these coins ?
-rob
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
Spot on!
The least they could do is refund fees if they bodybag a coin, surely?
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
As quite a few people have told me a large percentage of dealers in Australia have NO idea how to pick a damaged or cleaned coin, This may be OK in Aus but on a worldwide market it is definitely a "No Go"
bodybagging is a direct result of novices like me sending flawed coins in to be graded and the expense involved is a great incentive to steepen the learning curve :ok:
I really don't think that the buyers of slabbed coins are "Stupid" , I tend to think that they are more concerned with getting what they are paying for instead of just taking the word of a sometimes uneducated dealer or worse a shonky one.
I feel the TPG's graded coins are a more reliable source of coins in a guaranteed grade than from A seller/dealer that really doesn't know their stuff or is just plain "Shonky", Peter Wallace is a prime example.
Like it or not Mate slabbed coins are here to stay and are the way forward for astute dealers to stay in business .
Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='35883' dateline='1385810345'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='35857' dateline='1385795922'I think the best thing to do first would be to try to find why they were body-bagged - it'll help you avoid it in future. Maybe you can post photos up and we can help you find the reason.
+1
Two people had to make the same decision on the coin for the grade to be reached.
Trout, are you able to post the PCGS cert numbers, or your images for these coins ?
-rob
I am not doubting or arguing with the grades given, I simply don't see why :ok:
Here are the cert #
28598700
28598701
Quote from: 'trout' pid='35885' dateline='1385811401'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
As quite a few people have told me a large percentage of dealers in Australia have NO idea how to pick a damaged or cleaned coin, This may be OK in Aus but on a worldwide market it is definitely a "No Go"
bodybagging is a direct result of novices like me sending flawed coins in to be graded and the expense involved is a great incentive to steepen the learning curve :ok:
I really don't think that the buyers of slabbed coins are "Stupid" , I tend to think that they are more concerned with getting what they are paying for instead of just taking the word of a sometimes uneducated dealer or worse a shonky one.
I feel the TPG's graded coins are a more reliable source of coins in a guaranteed grade than from A seller/dealer that really doesn't know their stuff or is just plain "Shonky", Peter Wallace is a prime example.
Like it or not Mate slabbed coins are here to stay and are the way forward for astute dealers to stay in business .
Quote from: 'Fr45h3R' pid='35883' dateline='1385810345'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='35857' dateline='1385795922'I think the best thing to do first would be to try to find why they were body-bagged - it'll help you avoid it in future. Maybe you can post photos up and we can help you find the reason.
+1
Two people had to make the same decision on the coin for the grade to be reached.
Trout, are you able to post the PCGS cert numbers, or your images for these coins ?
-rob
I am not doubting or arguing with the grades given, I simply don't see why :ok:
Here are the cert #
28598700
28598701
28598700 looks fine to me.
Possibly a light scuff to the left of QE
MS64ish
28598701 looks cleaned though
I think giving them to your niece is a great idea.
I would also think plenty of people would like nice (but imperfect) examples?
I wonder what they would fetch if listed as is?
Photos?
I wish I could play but I can't but it's good to know what to keep an eye out for ;)
Quote from: 'runway' pid='35894' dateline='1385819099'Photos?
All you need to do is go to the PCGS Cert Verification site and punch in the cert # of any PCGS coin and it will come up with all the details of the coin and sometimes pic's as well :ok:
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598700.html
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='35889' dateline='1385816379'I think giving them to your niece is a great idea.
I would also think plenty of people would like nice (but imperfect) examples?
I wonder what they would fetch if listed as is?
As there are 2 of the same coin in the "Body Bagged" holders I may just list one out of idle curiosity.
I will post a link to that when I list it :ok:
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
Why don't you trust them picking cleaned coins? I've sent well over 10,000 coins and not a single coin has incorrectly come back cleaned.
In most cases complaints come from dealers who are upset when their coins come back bodybagged because don't know how to detect cleaned coins or they have cleaned the coins themselves but believe their method doesn't damage the coin and is therefore undetectable.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598700.html
This one has had some work done to the left of the bust, put it under a bright light when it comes back and you'll see it.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598701.html
This one, note how reflective the high points are and how lustre is subdued in the fields, put it under a bright light, I suspect you'll find cleaning hairlines.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='35920' dateline='1385848115'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
Why don't you trust them picking cleaned coins? I've sent well over 10,000 coins and not a single coin has incorrectly come back cleaned.
In most cases complaints come from dealers who are upset when their coins come back bodybagged because don't know how to detect cleaned coins or they have cleaned the coins themselves but believe their method doesn't damage the coin and is therefore undetectable.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598700.html
This one has had some work done to the left of the bust, put it under a bright light when it comes back and you'll see it.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598701.html
This one, note how reflective the high points are and how lustre is subdued in the fields, put it under a bright light, I suspect you'll find cleaning hairlines.
Spot on Walter, The "Machine damage" coin showed this when held at a particular angle.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/machine_damage.jpg)
The other "Cleaned" coin shows NO hair lines but the rim is quite dirty compared to the rest of the coin.
I think I will just keep these as representatives of what NOT to send for grading :ok:
It is a real shame that these coins were "doctored" before I bought them, they are otherwise really nice examples.
Spewing :dash1:
I think body bagged is a horrible term (maybe that is because I work in hospitals!) and actually see that sight at times
anyways, the coin looks nice, is in a holder and the only difference is the description
no shame is learning Trout
gosh, the first time my hubby went off for the driving test he drove my 1966 Volkswagen into the front gate of the house that we rented
I settled him with a cold cordial, pat on shoulder and the 'get back on the horse' attitude (and of course some additional concentration advice)
anyways, he chuffed off(well, the volksie did) up the road to then pass the driving test
went on to be a driver of many years now
everyone has got to learn and I like i've said to you - I did get in the hand opinion form a couple of experienced pcgsers here on my silvers as that seem to be the hot spot area for 'discrete or indiscrete cleaning'
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='35923' dateline='1385853684'I think body bagged is a horrible term (maybe that is because I work in hospitals!) and actually see that sight at times
anyways, the coin looks nice, is in a holder and the only difference is the description
no shame is learning Trout
gosh, the first time my hubby went off for the driving test he drove my 1966 Volkswagen into the front gate of the house that we rented
I settled him with a cold cordial, pat on shoulder and the 'get back on the horse' attitude (and of course some additional concentration advice)
anyways, he chuffed off(well, the volksie did) up the road to then pass the driving test
went on to be a driver of many years now
everyone has got to learn and I like i've said to you - I did get in the hand opinion form a couple of experienced pcgsers here on my silvers as that seem to be the hot spot area for 'discrete or indiscrete cleaning'
I am actually having a lot of fun with this submissions thing :yahoo:
I am also taking more time and putting a lot more thought and effort into grading my coins now instead of just the quick squiz and mark the 2x2 accordingly .
There is a very real element of a challenge sending coins off to be graded, Also the anticipation waiting for the results is quite exciting also :)
It has added a whole new dimension to my collecting and I am loving it :dance::dance2::dance:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='35921' dateline='1385849982'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='35920' dateline='1385848115'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
Why don't you trust them picking cleaned coins? I've sent well over 10,000 coins and not a single coin has incorrectly come back cleaned.
In most cases complaints come from dealers who are upset when their coins come back bodybagged because don't know how to detect cleaned coins or they have cleaned the coins themselves but believe their method doesn't damage the coin and is therefore undetectable.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598700.html
This one has had some work done to the left of the bust, put it under a bright light when it comes back and you'll see it.
http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/28598701.html
This one, note how reflective the high points are and how lustre is subdued in the fields, put it under a bright light, I suspect you'll find cleaning hairlines.
Spot on Walter, The "Machine damage" coin showed this when held at a particular angle.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/machine_damage.jpg)
The other "Cleaned" coin shows NO hair lines but the rim is quite dirty compared to the rest of the coin.
I think I will just keep these as representatives of what NOT to send for grading :ok:
It is a real shame that these coins were "doctored" before I bought them, they are otherwise really nice examples.
Spewing :dash1:
I don't think the first coin's been tooled. Those scrapes ("machine damage") most likely happened at the mint. I've seen this on coins fresh from rolls. Nevertheless, damage is damage, even if it happened in production.
The second coin has been buffed. Buffing doesn't always show hairlines.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='35885' dateline='1385811401'Here are the cert #
28598700
28598701
My opinion, a bit late since both Walter and Eric have replied, and who have seen a lot more coins than I have, is that the 2nd coin was picked up for cleaning in the following location.
[attachment=2538]
There appears to be a darker spot under the hairlines / scratches.
-rob
My opinion, a bit late since both Walter and Eric have replied, and who have seen a lot more coins than I have, is that the 2nd coin was picked up for cleaning in the following location.
There appears to be a darker spot under the hairlines / scratches.
-rob
[/quote]
That is a "Hit" on the coin
I'm new to slabbed coins and it is a great learning curve.
Purchased my first slab just a few months ago and now have a dozen or so (AU55 to MS67) that I am using to grade my collection.
Out of 3,000+ florins in my silver stack I had put aside 200+ as "better than bullion" over the years but 2 weeks ago I went through those nicer florins and by the time I was finished casting a critical slab oriented eye over them there were only 5 that might be worthwhile slabbing. Prior to buying my slabs I would have assumed dozens were worthy of slabbing.
Trout, your coin with the machine damage matches a sixpence I have put aside. An absolute beauty that I thought might make MS65 (or higher) as a possible mint error (I'm sure it happened at the mint), but seeing how your coin was bodybagged I realize that is one less coin in my collection to get slabbed.
Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
i wonder how many people have read the pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection by scott travers , before they make uneducated comments , read the book learn send coins for grading and then comment
I got a bit of a shock this morning when I found out my Ducat way "Bodybagged " by PCGS.
This was originally in a NGC slab graded at MS63, PCGS graded it at Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.)
I have little knowledge with gold coins but I can spot a dipped silver coin a mile away, this coin didn't look dipped to me.
The question to me is did NGC get slack when they graded the coin or did PCGS simply get it wrong?
Either way I am stunned with the results :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='36311' dateline='1386280063'I got a bit of a shock this morning when I found out my Ducat way "Bodybagged " by PCGS.
This was originally in a NGC slab graded at MS63, PCGS graded it at Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.)
I have little knowledge with gold coins but I can spot a dipped silver coin a mile away, this coin didn't look dipped to me.
The question to me is did NGC get slack when they graded the coin or did PCGS simply get it wrong?
Either way I am stunned with the results :dash1:
Sorry to hear that Jim. The best proclamation 8 reale I have is in a PCGS details slab and it came from an NGC AU58 slab and it still makes me sad to look at it. They are two different companies and they differ both in standards and experience. There are many collectors who say that NGC has much more experience in grading world coins than PCGS and especially in pre 19th century material and they will not send such coins to PCGS. There are also those who say that NGC is simply easier on coins than PCGS. Either way they are two different companies and you cannot expect the same results. PCGS offer a crossover service that allows you to send an NGC coin in while it's still in the slab and they'll only break it out if it grades. Perhaps you (and I) should have used that service instead of cracking out our coins.
It's all good Mate, PCGS took a very long time to grade this one so I think they have done it correctly .
I have heard that NGC is a lot easier on their grades, So to me that makes them less reliable slabs to buy.
details or not this is still a stunning coin and it is the star of my Proclamation set :good:
I will have a real good look at it when it comes home so that I will be able to tell in the future if a gold coin has been dipped.
The three sovereigns I sent in with the Ducat graded higher than I expected without any "details".
I am especially happy with the 1885 S Shield sovereign that I got off Eric, it graded at AU55 :yahoo:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='36315' dateline='1386283090'It's all good Mate, PCGS took a very long time to grade this one so I think they have done it correctly .
I have heard that NGC is a lot easier on their grades, So to me that makes them less reliable slabs to buy.
details or not this is still a stunning coin and it is the star of my Proclamation set :good:
I will have a real good look at it when it comes home so that I will be able to tell in the future if a gold coin has been dipped.
The three sovereigns I sent in with the Ducat graded higher than I expected without any "details".
I am especially happy with the 1885 S Shield sovereign that I got off Eric, it graded at AU55 :yahoo:
Did you send your 1879M sovereign away?
QuoteDid you send your 1879M sovereign away?
Yes it came in at AU50 :)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='36317' dateline='1386283803'QuoteDid you send your 1879M sovereign away?
Yes it came in at AU50 :)
Good result:good:
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='36319' dateline='1386284899'Quote from: 'trout' pid='36317' dateline='1386283803'QuoteDid you send your 1879M sovereign away?
Yes it came in at AU50 :)
Good result:good:
The Sydney Wreath and Shield sovs came in at AU58 :dance2::)
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='36295' dateline='1386243734'Quote from: 'Bigfellani5' pid='35882' dateline='1385809537'What echidna says is why pcgs is flawed. Honestly I don't trust then picking cleaned coins. The stupidity of the market going after coins in a hunk of plastic put there under a flawed system. They cost people a lot of money by body bagging perfectly good coins and also by the market over paying on coins in a hunk of plastic.
i wonder how many people have read the pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection by scott travers , before they make uneducated comments , read the book learn send coins for grading and then comment
for those interested the guide is available at amazon .com
Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='36295' dateline='1386243734'i wonder how many people have read the pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection by scott travers , before they make uneducated comments , read the book learn send coins for grading and then comment
Is the stuff on counterfeit detection any good?
Travers' book is one of the better ones out there on counterfeit detection.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='36448' dateline='1386377324'Quote from: 'PNC king' pid='36295' dateline='1386243734'i wonder how many people have read the pcgs official guide to coin grading and counterfeit detection by scott travers , before they make uneducated comments , read the book learn send coins for grading and then comment
Is the stuff on counterfeit detection any good?
the money i spent on the book was the best money i ever spent on any numismatic item period
No reason to doubt anyones opinion here...I'm intrigued with collectors opinions :)
yesterday, whilst doing the tourist thing here in New York, came across stacks rare coins. Naturally went for a look, guy was very helpful, i brought up ngc V pcgs . simply his opinion backs up what Markn said earlier ... ngc do better at world coins than pcgs
it does not resolve our conundrum but the more informed we are the better result .!
slightly off topic ..may go back and buy a 1881s ms64 Morgan dollar- a souvenir !