I am going to try to make a "clockface" of CofF rotations.
For anyone wondering what I am talking about, I mean getting a set of 12 coins which covers rotations at 1oclock, 2, oclock, 3 oclock, etc
Can anyone shed any light on how common or rare each of the rotations is?
Try Goldseekeer. Resident $1 mule and rotation expert.
A true 11 o'clock is by far the rarest.
I was hoping Goldy would respond.
He is the only person I know of who actually has a full clockface.
I would also be interested in other knowledgable peoples responses too.
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='32357' dateline='1382759838'Try Goldseekeer. Resident $1 mule and rotation expert.
:i_agree: Goldie's the $6m Dollar Man (that's probably close to how many he's noodled). His 2001 COF clock was on display at the mint I think.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32360' dateline='1382760793'Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='32357' dateline='1382759838'Try Goldseekeer. Resident $1 mule and rotation expert.
:i_agree: Goldie's the $6m Dollar Man (that's probably close to how many he's noodled). His 2001 COF clock was on display at the mint I think.
Yes, I saw it on display there!
Very nice!
What a good project, You could post pic's of you progress as you collect them :good:
Thanks Trout.
Some time back I was thinking that 'the hard ones to noodle' would be a wavy 20c and a $1 mule.
Now that I have found one of each I think the next big challenge should be a rotated $1 clockface.
I think it will be particularly hard as duplicates will turn up, so it will be much, more difficult than just finding 12 rotated coins (which seems pretty hard as well).
I have 2 at different angles so far - the one I found and one from a generous forum member.
There was a reference chart on the old forum if I remember correctly. Not sure if its made its way here...
Good luck with your search!
Wot if??? All of us who have 2001 $1 COF upsets post their holdings here so Ozcoins can maybe get an idea of what's been found so far.
I'm happy to do so and will take some images with my scope ASAP and put up the images for everyone to see.
I've got some really crook scans, but the new images should be a lot better.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='32359' dateline='1382760617'I was hoping Goldy would respond.
He is the only person I know of who actually has a full clockface.
I would also be interested in other knowledgable peoples responses too.
Wanna bet?
(http://www.thesandpit.net/dollars/clock_r.JPG)
(http://www.thesandpit.net/dollars/clock_o.JPG)
I found these plus a few hundred other individual coins "gambling" at Crown in Melbourne. They are all within a couple of degrees of the exact angle.
Out of all the coins I found, there were a lot at around 11:15 but only 5 were within tolerance of 11 o'clock.
excellent!!
love it
thanks for the pics
Wow! A few hundred! Incredible.
I've found a 3, 8 and 9 o'clock but due to finances I've sold them on.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32382' dateline='1382771516'Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='32359' dateline='1382760617'I was hoping Goldy would respond.
He is the only person I know of who actually has a full clockface.
I would also be interested in other knowledgable peoples responses too.
Wanna bet?
Thanks for elaborating!
Very nice!
PS. Just in case my post came across badly, you are certainly included as a knowledgeable person.
Once you've found a few, you can always chat to Goldy and see about some swaps, at least for the common ones anyway.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32377' dateline='1382769587'Wot if??? All of us who have 2001 $1 COF upsets post their holdings here so Ozcoins can maybe get an idea of what's been found so far.
I'm happy to do so and will take some images with my scope ASAP and put up the images for everyone to see.
I've got some really crook scans, but the new images should be a lot better.
Thanks Nevol,
That is a great idea.
Some statistics would give me some idea what I am up against.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='32401' dateline='1382773706'Once you've found a few, you can always chat to Goldy and see about some swaps, at least for the common ones anyway.
Another good idea.
I was thinking that I would try and find them all myself, but that would also rule out one of the two I currently have, as I did not find that myself either.
I think "phase 1" will be "complete a clock face" and "phase 2" will be "complete a clock face using only coins I have found myself"
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='32423' dateline='1382779326'I was thinking that I would try and find them all myself
Not gonna happen. I've got a tub with maybe a thousand of these sitting here, waiting for time to sort the different sizes, and from that lot I found exactly one. For a grand total of four over the years.
Not saying its impossible, but they're a well-known error which is as actively sought as mules. Even finding a dozen with duplicates is going to be tough.
OK, I first started sorting/noodling coin way way back on the 4 Aug 2004 and except for a period of around twelve months, I have been looking at $1 coins up to current date.
To date, I have looked at in excess of of 2.4 million $1 coins. In that total, 96,000 coins have been the centenary Of Fedweration $1 coins.
In that total, I have found 483 COF Upsets.
To date, I have made up three Clockfaces, one of which is on display at the RAM Visitor Gallery, one set was sold on EBay a couple of years ago and I still have one set at home here but it does need some more coins to replace some of the coins that are outside of my limits for being in the clockface.
The hardest coins to mount a clockface are those that are +/- 1 degree of accuracy to be able to go into the clockaface at the strart.
The hardest coins to find are those between 4 and 8 O'clock. The one at 6 o'clock being the hardest and rarest to find.
I have another set that I am putting together that is spaced at every 1 minute of the clock or at every 6 degrees. Further, I am including the 12 coins that represent the half hour location of the minute hand. In all, 72 coins are required and to date I have 38 of them.
I am currently siting on in excess 200 COF Upsets that I can't use, all of which are at various degrees of rotation.
I have a special set up on my computer that includes two cameras linked to a specially written computer program that allows me to measure the accuracy to within 1 degree of accuracy. The clockface that I have on display at the RAM has had four or five of the coins measured by the staff at the RAM and they were withing half a degree of what they should be so my system is quite accurate.
I trust you have plenty of time to get your clockface together and don't slacken off on the quality of the coins that you want to put into your clockface.
Once put together, the clockface really does look good.
Wish you luck.
If you have any more questions/queries just PM me.
Here is a photo of me with the coins at the RAM taken approx. 18 months ago.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32377' dateline='1382769587'Wot if??? All of us who have 2001 $1 COF upsets post their holdings here so Ozcoins can maybe get an idea of what's been found so far.
I'm happy to do so and will take some images with my scope ASAP and put up the images for everyone to see.
I've got some really crook scans, but the new images should be a lot better.
I believe your idea of posting ones COF upset holdings would work if everyone measured their coins the same way. Otherwise I believe it would be a waste of time if your idea is to help forum members build an accurate clock face.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='32428' dateline='1382783766'I believe your idea of posting ones COF upset holdings would work if everyone measured their coins the same way. Otherwise I believe it would be a waste of time if your idea is to help forum members build an accurate clock face.
:agreed: But then again, mine are official Goldy-scope™ certified. ;)
Great pics emu :)
If both sides are shown in 2x2's, surely it wouldn't be too hard to work out the degree of upset with some accuracy.
When I re-do my images, I'll be leaving them in the 2x2's with the reverses in the upright position. I might even get to do them today. :winkextra:
The only time I ever notice an "Upset" coin is after I have put them in 2x2's :blush:
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='32356' dateline='1382759681'I am going to try to make a "clockface" of CofF rotations.
For anyone wondering what I am talking about, I mean getting a set of 12 coins which covers rotations at 1oclock, 2, oclock, 3 oclock, etc
Can anyone shed any light on how common or rare each of the rotations is?
Good luck
Thanks everyone who likes the idea, and who has wished me luck.
Thinking about the points that different people have made, it seems like a VERY difficult thing to achieve.
The stats that Goldy has contributed make it clear just how rare these rotated coins are.
Also only 12 out of 360 degrees are "exactly right" for a point on a clockface.
Also some points will be harder to find than others.
Also they have been collected, so will be becoming harder to find in circulation....
I think many people (including me before thinking further about it) underestimate how difficult this is to do.
Well done to Emu666 and Goldseeker in managing such a difficult feat. Thank you also for and sharing info on these.
I will still see how I go, but it is clearly a whole different game than "finding a mule", or finding a wavy".
Quote from: 'trout' pid='32487' dateline='1382827901'The only time I ever notice an "Upset" coin is after I have put them in 2x2's :blush:
work out the 'up' position on each coin
hold it lightly between the thumb and index finger and gently turn the coin
I do it on the pre-dec years that are known for it
I think that I also posted a 2x2 white sheet that I have marked off with a cross
it is a bit deceptive at times unless they are really well turned
the hubby got one about 7 o'clock form my poker machine winnings last year - it was one of those 2001 one dollars - he was wrapped too
our only resident decimal rotation!
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='32518' dateline='1382850759'hold it lightly between the thumb and index finger and gently turn the coin
This works well, except at shallow angles. The official tolerance IIRC is around 5°, but you'll be hard pressed to spot under about 15° this way.
You can also fold a 2x2, then just drop coins into it and turn them over. If you're prepared to sacrifice the mount, go ahead and draw alignment lines on it.
Of course, anything you find with these quick and dirty methods should be accurately measured. Goldy's double-cam setup is the ultimate, but you can also use a scanner or other arrangement, as long as you can measure a precise angle. And
DO write it on the mount.
not everyone has a double cam mate
I can't see how a scanner would be any different to the moving a coin on a marked sheet of paper or a well executed hand held turn
as long as you have the centre line (up) of the coin, right on both sides
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='32531' dateline='1382853580'I can't see how a scanner would be any different
Ask Goldy for a pic of his scanner coin flipper.
Whatever aid you use, the object is to get something you can accurately measure. And to do it quickly and cheaply.
Actually, come to think of it, you don't need to flip the coin in the scanner. All you need is to attach a strip of cardboard of the exact depth of an alignment feature on one side of the coin. Say the 1 DOLLAR on a MoR for example. Then slip the coin in with that side up, align it with the straight edge of the card, and hit the scan button. Measure the angle of a known alignment feature on the other side. Goldy's software uses a line from the tip of the A to the side of the E, but you can use anything as long as its consistent.
ok
did I get that?? ha ha
the hubby has some small calibrating measuring thingee
I think he uses that to measure gaps, ect on errors
every coin that passes through my hands ,get,s a quick turnabout in my fingers before it passes on to where ever .. ,, kel ,,
have a look at my feedback on ebay and you will see that the last offset dollar that I sold on ebay , I got $ 59.00 for it , that price even surprised me .. ,, kel ,,
Quote from: 'keldaw' pid='32553' dateline='1382857391'that price even surprised me ..
I'd expect the prices to only go up as more people discover them and want to complete sets.
Here are my 2001 CoF Upsets. The coin # is the order in which I found them, but I've re numbered them to keep them in order by the degree of Upset. I had 2 more but they've been re-homed and were basically duplicates. :whistle2:
Degree of upset is only approximate. I did measure them originally on a device I got from Goldy, but I don't think I was using it properly.
1.$1 2001 CoF Upset #1 Duo - Approx 80°:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/30nj5fc.jpg)
2.$1 2001 CoF Upset #2 Duo - Approx 120°:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/250npg9.jpg)
3.$1 2001 CoF Upset #10 Duo - Approx 120°:
I'm prepared to exchange this one for one with a different degree of upset.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/30dfrcp.jpg)
4.$1 2001 CoF Upset #4 Duo - Approx 150°:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/1zn6g01.jpg)
5.$1 2001 CoF Upset #5 Duo - Approx 180°:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/z36o6.jpg)
6.$1 2001 CoF Upset #6 Duo - Approx 210°:
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2ymd6o0.jpg)
7.$1 2001 Cof Upset #12 Duo - Approx 270°:
This one is a scan I did in 2010, I can't find the coin at present. If I do find it, one of the 2 x 270° will also be available for exchange.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/294thfs.jpg)
8.$1 2001 CoF Upset #7 Duo - Approx 270°:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/20jpnyv.jpg)
9.$1 2001 CoF Upset #11 Duo - Approx 300°:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/negjmh.jpg)
10.$1 2001 CoF Upset #9 Duo - Approx 325°:
(http://i41.tinypic.com/10oo13n.jpg)
Nice scans Nevol. You are not far out on your angles either.
that is almost a clock!!!
too cool
the forum is brimming with secret coin clock collectors!!
Great stuff guys and gals, very impressive!
Pedro
From memory I've only ever found 1
You may have only found 1 jozk123, but what about the "others" that you showed me some time back?
is this what these little errors are worth??
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2001-CENTENARY-AUSTRALIAN-ONE-DOLLAR-RAM-ROTATED-4OCLOCK-ERROR-RARE-EXC-/200978147245?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item2ecb3b27ad#ht_965wt_1402
I would not think so Robbie , around $ 25 . 00 = $ 30.00 would be about it I think ,, even though I got $ 59.00 for one of mine but it was in very good condition .. ,, kel ,,
The lad that Purple Pussy pointed out is dreaming. We couldn't get $275 for the choice unc one I found at work.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3372&item=321225542598
I don't think they are worth that much
I think the ones I have seen sell usually go for $25-$30
I don't think I have seen any sell for anything close to that asking price.
I guess we will see if it sells
That seller is (as far as I can make out) related to guess who (Starts with an L) in Bundy. :angel:
:i_agree: with Kel & Ozcoins
My 3 ebayed for approx $22, $26 and $24.
Nevol, I suppose they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees. :laugh2:
thanks Kel Nevol OZ and Unicorn & here I was thinking that the hubby's 7óclock rotation from the Taylor's Lakes hotel pokies was up there with the mules!!
Good - cause I only charged him the face value for it too!! ha ha
thanks emu
that unc coins is very nice
I guess that ebay isn't always the best reference point for prices
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32704' dateline='1382959396'Nevol, I suppose they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees. :laugh2:
That's it! All those fees must be stupendous. :whistle2:
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32704' dateline='1382959396'they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees.
LOL! Yeah. :)
I'd agree that individual random examples are worth dozens rather than hundreds of dollars. They're not that rare compared to other notable errors like mules and wavys.
What I do think is undervalued is complete clockfaces, especially ones that haven't been fudged. Building them is devilishly difficult, as evidenced by Goldy's efforts... If it was easy, he'd have fifty of them! :)
If I remember correctly, the first 2001 COF Upset I ever sold on EBay went for $137.00 about three years ago.
I started selling them again quite regularly on EBay from December 2012 and was getting around $85 but the price steadily dropped to around $25 when I stopped selling around May 2013. Made a pretty penny though. All profits going as spending money on out forthcoming cruise.
In all, I sold 26 Upsets at an average price of $36.00.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32709' dateline='1382960478'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32704' dateline='1382959396'Nevol, I suppose they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees. :laugh2:
That's it! All those fees must be stupendous. :whistle2:
What are you talking about?
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32731' dateline='1383008132'What are you talking about?
They are suggesting that the seller of that mangy upset for $340 is related to another seller who claimed to own copyright over the 50c bubble variety. That seller sent emails to people asking them to remove their listings because she owned the copyright, or patent or trademark as Unicorn jokingly made reference to.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32731' dateline='1383008132'Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32709' dateline='1382960478'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32704' dateline='1382959396'Nevol, I suppose they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees. :laugh2:
That's it! All those fees must be stupendous. :whistle2:
What are you talking about?
Have a look at this thread from CCF :ok:
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=160018&whichpage=1
I am speechless.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='32664' dateline='1382944558'You may have only found 1 jozk123, but what about the "others" that you showed me some time back?
Yes Bruce the "others" they always see to make up for the have nots
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32735' dateline='1383010712'I am speechless.
Just like everyone else. Well, apart from one of course... maybe two. ;)
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32735' dateline='1383010712'I am speechless.
Yes, a bit of a lost cause I think.
The 'wake up' was called for after the message that was sent to AC.
(See pages 16 & 17).
http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=744&page=16 (http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=744&page=16)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='32733' dateline='1383009452'Quote from: 'emu666' pid='32731' dateline='1383008132'Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32709' dateline='1382960478'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='32704' dateline='1382959396'Nevol, I suppose they need the money to afford all the copyrighting, patenting and trademark fees. :laugh2:
That's it! All those fees must be stupendous. :whistle2:
What are you talking about?
Have a look at this thread from CCF :ok:
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=160018&whichpage=1
The CCF 'bubble' chick., and one of her rellies.
Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32754' dateline='1383025782'The CCF 'bubble' chick
Is that where the term "bubblebrain" comes from? :angel:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='32765' dateline='1383032024'Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='32754' dateline='1383025782'The CCF 'bubble' chick
Is that where the term "bubblebrain" comes from? :angel:
Pretty Much :angel:
"I'm forever blowing bubbles" must be her theme song...........
ok
I am going to copyright
dinosaur skippy (my halfp. error coin)
I now officially own the words
dinosaur
and skippy
please forward all royalties to the following bank account
Bank: Get a real life foundation
Account: i'm so dumb that my brain ran away from me
Fees: umm errr , ummm errr; 1c per use - I'll be a millionaire by the end of next week
those conversations are ridiculous!
you did well Trout in being so explanatory and diplomatic
but sometimes a person can get very focussed and they really can't see the big picture of the world of quirky error coins
pity - as it makes little things into bigger silly things
Oops.........
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='32424' dateline='1382780424'Not saying its impossible, but they're a well-known error which is as actively sought as mules. Even finding a dozen with duplicates is going to be tough.
Update.
I found another one today - about 11 o'clock.
I think that makes 6 I have found, so halfway to a dozen....
Well done Oz! :yahoo:
Are they all different times? (Which ones are they?)
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='32707' dateline='1382959940'thanks Kel Nevol OZ and Unicorn & here I was thinking that the hubby's 7óclock rotation from the Taylor's Lakes hotel pokies was up there with the mules!!
Good - cause I only charged him the face value for it too!! ha ha
thanks emu
that unc coins is very nice
I guess that ebay isn't always the best reference point for prices
What you doing in Taylors Lakes Hotel? That used to be my territory. Tell me, are all the ladies behind the coin counter small?
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='40959' dateline='1391402627'Well done Oz! :yahoo:
Are they all different times? (Which ones are they?)
3 around 9 o'clock
2 around 3 o'clock
1 around 11 o'clock
However this is too small a sample to have any idea what is most common.
Cool, I think Goldie's post back on page 2 of this thread shows some very good insight into which are the rarer ones. (Considering he'd had 483 of them at that stage on which to base his thoughts).
Ít sounds like you're going quite well finding six so far.
I found my 7th last week. (Which is the 4th I've found since you started this thread). Will put up a pic when I list it. My first impression of it was 6 o'clock but still have to measure it.
That makes my total tally
3 x 9 o'clock
2 x 8 o'clock
1 x 3 o'clock
1 x 6? o'clock
PS: I've yet to find a wavy!
you are not on your lonesome there uni .. ,, kel ,,
Unicorn-One problem one has in collecting/finding the 2001 Upsets is to find a really good method of measuring the angle of upset.....good luck as it took me a long time to find a successful method.
Something I do for a quick check, which I am pretty sure is more accurate than 'spin while holding with thumb and index finger', is to align my thumb nail against the side of the coin in line with the tip of the queens neck, then flip the coin over see where the edge of the thumbnail lines up.
Those that are looking for these coins, give that a try and let me know if it works for you.
Quote from: 'Ozcoins' pid='41045' dateline='1391508460'align my thumb nail against the side of the coin in line with the tip of the queens neck, then flip the coin over see where the edge of the thumbnail lines up.
Hrm. That gives me an idea for a method that should combine the simplicity with the accuracy of Goldy's 2-cam setup.
A 2x2 or similar, sized so the coin is a tight fit. Alignment lines on both sides. Insert coin, flip, measure offset. Easy, cheap and accurate, no?
Off to the mad scientist lab to try it out... :dodgy:
who is wanting to buy some of these ??? I wonder .
,, kel ,,
I have just measured the ones I have here;
•146º (4.9 o'clock)
•231º (7.7 o'clock)
•277.5º (9.25 o'clock)
I have sold several in the past but didn't keep a record of amount of upset.
To measure the upset my procedure is;
•Put coin in a 1½x½ holder
•scan both sides with holder aligned exactly to edge of scanner
•rotate reverse scan to get "1901 2001" exactly horizontal and note number of degrees required
•add a line to obverse to show what should be vertical centre line. I scanned several 50¢ coins to determine where this line should be -easy to line up with the centres of the "corners" with these
•rotate obverse scan same amount as noted for reverse (but opposite direction on screen). This aligns the obverse with the reverse.
•now rotate the obverse scan until I get the centre line exactly vertical. The amount of rotation required is the upset of the coin. Divide degrees rotation by 30 and that is the clock position.
I guess the rotation and, if it not right, undo the rotation and add or subtract a degree or two -repeating as necessary- until I get it right.
Any half reasonable image processing software will allow you to do this. I mostly use the old Micrografx Picture Publisher which allows rotation to be nominated to, at least, a precision of 0.1º -that is a smaller increment than my eyes can accurately assess on my screen. Micrografx was bought out by Corel in 2001 and they quietly dropped support a few years later. I have version 5 (simple to use) and version 8 (many more features but not as quick and easy to use). I would be interested to acquire a copy of V10 (the last one), if anyone has it -just to compare with V8.