I picked this one up at Petersham on Friday.
Apparently a broadstrike:
(http://www.thesandpit.net/shillings/1961_o.JPG)
(http://www.thesandpit.net/shillings/1961_r.JPG)
Note the indented base to the lettering on the obverse, characteristic of unconstrained metal flow from the centre to the outside of the coin. This is usually indicative of a missing collar.
I showed it to Tony Byrne and he raised the intriguing possiblity of it having been struck with a halfpenny collar. The coin is just a little smaller than an average halfpenny but probably within tolerance. As no halfpennies had been struck at the Melbourne Mint since 1959, it is hard to imagine a halfpenny collar lying around. Still, an interesting possiblity.
Very nice indeed !,usually coins struck with no collar at all are'nt so perfectly round,maybe mint staff were having a play.
must of been a bad day at the Mint!
i'll show Tony this one on Sunday (at the local coin show) - he'll think it's a conspiracy!
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized_zpsb92e4b88.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized2_zps9468317f.jpg)
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29816' dateline='1380804179'must of been a bad day at the Mint!
i'll show Tony this one on Sunday (at the local coin show) - he'll think it's a conspiracy!
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized_zpsb92e4b88.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized2_zps9468317f.jpg)
It would be extremely likely the two coins were struck on the same day.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29823' dateline='1380827808'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29816' dateline='1380804179'must of been a bad day at the Mint!
i'll show Tony this one on Sunday (at the local coin show) - he'll think it's a conspiracy!
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized_zpsb92e4b88.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized2_zps9468317f.jpg)
It would be extremely likely the two coins were struck on the same day.
Peter,how can you be so sure that they were struck on the same day?
It looks to me that they are from 2 different pairs of dies as only one of them has a small dot between the 2 top rays of the star. So if they had stopped the press to change the die then wouldn't they have serviced the problematic collar at that time?
Still nice shillings.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29823' dateline='1380827808'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29816' dateline='1380804179'must of been a bad day at the Mint!
i'll show Tony this one on Sunday (at the local coin show) - he'll think it's a conspiracy!
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized_zpsb92e4b88.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/resized2_zps9468317f.jpg)
It would be extremely likely the two coins were struck on the same day.
Peter,how can you be so sure that they were struck on the same day?
It looks to me that they are from 2 different pairs of dies as only one of them has a small dot between the 2 top rays of the star. So if they had stopped the press to change the die then wouldn't they have serviced the problematic collar at that time?
Still nice shillings.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='29843' dateline='1380863031'Peter,how can you be so sure that they were struck on the same day?
It looks to me that they are from 2 different pairs of dies as only one of them has a small dot between the 2 top rays of the star. So if they had stopped the press to change the die then wouldn't they have serviced the problematic collar at that time?
Still nice shillings.
Good point nealeffendi, I missed that dot. I should have looked closer rather than getting excited by the similarity of the two coin.
The collar hypothesis is looking a lot less likely.
Regardless, a nice coincidence.
where's the dot guys?
I can't see it
I do go over the pictures carefully to look for either similarities or differences
do you mean the star to the left of the Rams,'head
Could that be a scanning error?
I think we need these two coins in the hand
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29885' dateline='1380885568'where's the dot guys?
I can't see it
I do go over the pictures carefully to look for either similarities or differences
do you mean the star to the left of the Rams,'head
Could that be a scanning error?
I think we need these two coins in the hand
On the duller shilling in the 7 pointed federation star there is a dot where the 2 topmost rays (points) meet. Might be other '61 shillings out there with that same star fault but not the shinier broadstrike.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29885' dateline='1380885568'I can't see it
First reverse, left star, in the cleft between the top point and the right upper.
Looks like a cud to me.
Actually, on closer examination, that coin seems to be covered in a number of dots, similar to the type 3 bubbles on the 2012 50ยข
(type 1 being the one AJ found, type 2 above the roo, type 3 the many small ones in the bottom half of the coin).
Probably overkill ........ but here's a pic RG
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11067/1961_r.jpg)
ta
I did think it might have been that spot
maybe feathers can have a closer look at his coin and check that it really is there
I thought my coin may have been jammed in a die hub thingee and was wedged out hence the scratches - often the mis-strikes had to be manually removed
but that other coin doesn't have any marks like that
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29896' dateline='1380904554'ta
I did think it might have been that spot
maybe feathers can have a closer look at his coin and check that it really is there
I thought my coin may have been jammed in a die hub thingee and was wedged out hence the scratches - often the mis-strikes had to be manually removed
but that other coin doesn't have any marks like that
If they manually removed many of the mistrikes then why didn't they chuck them in the rejects bin and not let them leave the mint?
just repeating the stories that I have been told by the old mint guys
I have been told that they were put on trays/sorting tables to go back into the melting pot but obviously not all were
there must have been accidental sorting mistakes or errors not picked up, perhaps more so during busy schedules, as far too many errors do show up
I have done factory quality control sorting in my past life (not a mint mind you) and some days - nothing gets past the eyes, other days, well the quality control can be a bit remiss
I was watching the young blokes operating the die press at the RAM $1 at the ANDA show here in Canberra, they put the coin errors to the side ON TRAY/s - 'to be melted back down'. we could see them and were drooling , there were rows and rows and rows of the things
considering that the RAM doesn't make it's own planchets anymore, it doesn't quite make logical sense to me
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29911' dateline='1380956661'just repeating the stories that I have been told by the old mint guys
I have been told that they were put on trays/sorting tables to go back into the melting pot but obviously not all were
there must have been accidental sorting mistakes or errors not picked up, perhaps more so during busy schedules, as far too many errors do show up
I have done factory quality control sorting in my past life (not a mint mind you) and some days - nothing gets past the eyes, other days, well the quality control can be a bit remiss
I was watching the young blokes operating the die press at the RAM $1 at the ANDA show here in Canberra, they put the coin errors to the side ON TRAY/s - 'to be melted back down'. we could see them and were drooling , there were rows and rows and rows of the things
considering that the RAM doesn't make it's own planchets anymore, it doesn't quite make logical sense to me
How good is the security on those trays at ANDA?
I mean I am honest:angel: but for a spectacular error I might be tempted :mafia:
Tacky glue on a fly-fishing line, time to get my casting technique perfected:whistle2:.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29911' dateline='1380956661'just repeating the stories that I have been told by the old mint guys
I have been told that they were put on trays/sorting tables to go back into the melting pot but obviously not all were
there must have been accidental sorting mistakes or errors not picked up, perhaps more so during busy schedules, as far too many errors do show up
I have done factory quality control sorting in my past life (not a mint mind you) and some days - nothing gets past the eyes, other days, well the quality control can be a bit remiss
I was watching the young blokes operating the die press at the RAM $1 at the ANDA show here in Canberra, they put the coin errors to the side ON TRAY/s - 'to be melted back down'. we could see them and were drooling , there were rows and rows and rows of the things
considering that the RAM doesn't make it's own planchets anymore, it doesn't quite make logical sense to me
How good is the security on those trays at ANDA?
I mean I am honest:angel: but for a spectacular error I might be tempted :mafia:
Tacky glue on a fly-fishing line, time to get my casting technique perfected:whistle2:.
nah - they had them way over the back
a coin club member pointed it out to me
we did ask if we could buy 'those coins over there'
just got a chuckle and the melting pot fib
How does a Mint Your Own work? Does a RAM employee place the coin to be struck in the machine and retrieve it after the customer has somehow caused it to be struck?
MYO- money in slot - coin is pressed and automatically dispensed \untouched by human hands
the mobile mint at the show/s
employee places the coin into the mobile press - spins and presses the coin
then they remove it, inspect it and place it in the capsule/holder and hand to the customer
they get the chance to check out the coin
when I watched them do the bluebell ones they had a close up screen playing so that you could see the whole process
here are a couple of the purple penny blogs with photos of the process - it is the mint employee putting the coin in place and the customer about to push the press button
http://www.australian-threepence.com/blog/2010/11/mint-your-own-the-mobile-coin-press.html
Thank you, robbiegal. This discussion brought the misplaced B counterstamp on that dollar we were talking about in another thread to mind.
had a chat to Tony and another ex mintie and agreed
either a halfpenny collar or possibly the PNG 1929 (?) penny collar - the one year where the penny was smaller than later issues
as the Melbourne mint only made PNG (TNG) currency other than aussie coins and that may have been a long shot by 1961 but that particular penny was small
yes, they should have been selected out re-melted down but it may have been possible that they were made without the error being picked up before the coins were mixed in for distribution
Tony didn't think that the small cud on Emu's coin would necessarily mean that it was from a different batch
it is a mystery and neither man thought that it was mint mischief - just a production error, which for Melbourne was not common at all
anyways, they liked my coin and reckoned that it is a great example of an fairly rare error
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='29966' dateline='1381059202'it is a mystery and neither man thought that it was mint mischief - just a production error, which for Melbourne was not common at all
anyways, they liked my coin and reckoned that it is a great example of an fairly rare error
Production errors were pretty common at Melbourne, heaps of lamination errors, clips to triple clips, poor hubbing (legend doubling, double nosed queen etc), cracked dies, rusty dies, high lips etc.
It is good they stuffed up, it gets us variety and error collectors drooling.
well, Marks' recent 1959 Halfpenny M error is testament to that!
Any chance of an image of the edge, in general this will tell you if a collar has been used.
rob's coin
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/P6130004_01_zpsf2442e64.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/P6130088_zps3b8ddcdf.jpg)
Really faint milling??? Hmmm...
A reasonably square edge, this usually suggests a collar was used.
Any faint lines on the edge could be the result of the coin being pushed out of the (plain) collar. These lines can be seen on 50c coins now and again.
If a wrong collar die was used, it raises the question, is it a broadstrike.
Have you measured the diameter?
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='30195' dateline='1381285438'If a wrong collar die was used, it raises the question, is it a broadstrike.
No. It would be a mule.
here is my attempt at measuring and matching against a halfpenny & another shilling
hope that the pictures say a million words (*giggle*)
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800092_zpsd91760aa.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800072_zpsd4e5bce3.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800062_zps51fc95f3.jpg)
on top of the 1955 shilling
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800052_zps78e87e4a.jpg)
on top of the halfpenny
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800082_zpse134c5f9.jpg)
scientific measuring attempt
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800102_zps1effa866.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA0800112_zps8fc96640.jpg)
Great pics RG!
ta
:)
this coin is very mysterious
I figured that when I bought it
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='30205' dateline='1381290197'Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='30195' dateline='1381285438'If a wrong collar die was used, it raises the question, is it a broadstrike.
No. It would be a mule.
Yes sure would.
Shilling, 1961 muled with halfpenny collar. Old obverse scratch else uncirculated and exceptionally rare with only two examples of this type of error recorded....
Robbie, we're rich!!!!!
Just slightly smaller than a halfpenny:
(http://www.thesandpit.net/shillings/1961_c.JPG)
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='30137' dateline='1381223677'Any chance of an image of the edge, in general this will tell you if a collar has been used.
If I recall with emu666's coin, when we had a look at it, there didn't appear to be milling at all. Also, with the nice symmetry of the coin, Tony Byrne believed it was struck in a collar, as normally an out of collar strike doesn't end up perfectly round,
He deduced that due to lack of milling, and around about the size, the coin was possibly struck in a halfpenny collar.
you halfpenny there Fr45h3R
is rather impressive .............
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='30259' dateline='1381313398'is rather impressive .............
Certainly is. Now, who's going to be first to list on ebay?
Extremely Rare 1961 Shilling/Halfpenny MULEStart the bidding at say ten grand maybe? With enough big red letters in the description, it'd be sure to sell. ;)
well
i'd agree that these coins are very likely rare
we need further confirmation of the mule theory
I thought a mule had two different sides from two different countries?
other than that $1 'mule' from oz
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='30265' dateline='1381315654'I thought a mule had two different sides from two different countries?
Mismatched dies. Usually Obverse and Reverse, but since there are three dies, the Collar counts too.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='30272' dateline='1381316081'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='30265' dateline='1381315654'I thought a mule had two different sides from two different countries?
Mismatched dies. Usually Obverse and Reverse, but since there are three dies, the Collar counts too.
Technically speaking, does the collar count as a die or a tool?
And if it counts as a die then are uniface '37s really uniface?
If a collar was in place, we don't know which one was used. So not "Extremely Rare 1961 Shilling/Halfpenny MULE".
More like a 1/- with a wrong collar.
I would say a collar is a die as it can have different designs, plain, lettered, reeded etc.
The uniface is a uniface as there are only 2 faces and 1 edge to a coin.
I have my coin labelled as an out of collar error
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='30339' dateline='1381385901'If a collar was in place, we don't know which one was used. So not "Extremely Rare 1961 Shilling/Halfpenny MULE".
More like a 1/- with a wrong collar.
I would say a collar is a die as it can have different designs, plain, lettered, reeded etc.
The uniface is a uniface as there are only 2 faces and 1 edge to a coin.
But if it has 2 faces then how can it be uniface?
And yes there can be some very fancy milling on coins edges (even words), but does that make it formally or officially a die?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='30343' dateline='1381390980'But if it has 2 faces then how can it be uniface?
And yes there can be some very fancy milling on coins edges (even words), but does that make it formally or officially a die?
Generally edge lettering, whether incuse or in relief is not applied during the striking process. It's a pre-minting or post minting operation.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='30343' dateline='1381390980'does that make it formally or officially a die?
According to the Oxford dictionary:
2 (plural dies) a device for cutting or moulding metal into a particular shape.
an engraved device for stamping a design on coins or medals.
So yes, its a die, as is anything else used to form metal
(or any other material, really).
So I'd stick with a coin struck with a wrong collar as being a mule. As distinct from being struck out of collar, which these aren't. Far too neat for that, as has been pointed out.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='30407' dateline='1381417394'So I'd stick with a coin struck with a wrong collar as being a mule. As distinct from being struck out of collar, which these aren't. Far too neat for that, as has been pointed out.
I agree. Of course if the coin never touches the collar you'd never be able to tell the difference between an "out of collar" and a "mule due to incorrect collar die".
Quote from: 'markn' pid='30419' dateline='1381438620'if the coin never touches the collar you'd never be able to tell the difference between an "out of collar" and a "mule due to incorrect collar die".
:agreed: