I heard from Mark at Strand coins that a Dr Brigg's recently published an article in which he claimed to have a 1920 dot over top with English obverse. Does anyone know where this article was published, who the Dr is and has the coin been spotted by anyone who can confirm the variety.
I'm 95% certain that the variety doesn't exist but then I suppose that is what was thought about the /./ English.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='29105' dateline='1379897501'I heard from Mark at Strand coins that a Dr Brigg's recently published an article in which he claimed to have a 1920 dot over top with English obverse. Does anyone know where this article was published, who the Dr is and has the coin been spotted by anyone who can confirm the variety.
I'm 95% certain that the variety doesn't exist but then I suppose that is what was thought about the /./ English.
I've never heard of the article or the Dr but there is a Dr C. Stephen Briggs with the British Numismatic Society or at least presented at one of their meetings:
Dr C. Stephen Briggs is a Yorkshireman educated at Batley and in Belfast. From 1973 to 2006 he worked for the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales at Aberystwyth where he was sometime Head of Archaeology. His interest in numismatics was begun by Graham Teasdill at Batley Museum and fostered by Michael Dolley at the Queen's University, Belfast. Now retired, Stephen divides his time unequally between archaeological research, making music, gardening, and family.
He wouldn't have been referring to a series of articles on "The 1920 Penny Revisited" by Fred Lever starting in the current CAB Magazine would he?
Speaking of 1920 London's,this guy is usually OK but has lost the plot with this coin.'
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Scarce-1920-Australian-Penny-no-dot-London-obverse-Fine-/290982652223?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item43bfeae93f&_uhb=1
Any thought on this interesting Coin?,all my dot under Londons have a die crack thru 'A' or 'IND' ,this one doesn't seem to have either.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-Penny-1920-Dot-Below-DBBS-Key-Date-Variety-Rare-London-Mint-Coin-L258-/141063642808?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item20d80c5eb8&_uhb=1
Quote from: 'Steveqld' pid='29121' dateline='1379916097'He wouldn't have been referring to a series of articles on "The 1920 Penny Revisited" by Fred Lever starting in the current CAB Magazine would he?
No, Fred and I am co-authors of the series. Fred doesn't know who the Dr is and also only knows of the guy from England (via Googling his name) who probably is just another Dr with the same last name.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='29184' dateline='1379936639'Speaking of 1920 London's,this guy is usually OK but has lost the plot with this coin.'
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Scarce-1920-Australian-Penny-no-dot-London-obverse-Fine-/290982652223?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item43bfeae93f&_uhb=1
Any thought on this interesting Coin?,all my dot under Londons have a die crack thru 'A' or 'IND' ,this one doesn't seem to have either.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-Penny-1920-Dot-Below-DBBS-Key-Date-Variety-Rare-London-Mint-Coin-L258-/141063642808?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item20d80c5eb8&_uhb=1
Hi Basil
I can spot the die flaw IND on the first coin, the second coin is fuzzy at the IND but still has the rim groove above RITT. Both are therefore from the more common of the Dot Below English dies.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='29184' dateline='1379936639'Speaking of 1920 London's,this guy is usually OK but has lost the plot with this coin.'
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Scarce-1920-Australian-Penny-no-dot-London-obverse-Fine-/290982652223?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item43bfeae93f&_uhb=1
Any thought on this interesting Coin?,all my dot under Londons have a die crack thru 'A' or 'IND' ,this one doesn't seem to have either.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-Penny-1920-Dot-Below-DBBS-Key-Date-Variety-Rare-London-Mint-Coin-L258-/141063642808?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item20d80c5eb8&_uhb=1
Hi Basil
I can spot the die flaw IND on the first coin, the second coin is fuzzy at the IND but still has the rim groove above RITT. Both are therefore from the more common of the Dot Below English dies.
Quote from: 'Steveqld' pid='29121' dateline='1379916097'He wouldn't have been referring to a series of articles on "The 1920 Penny Revisited" by Fred Lever starting in the current CAB Magazine would he?
No, Fred and I am co-authors of the series. Fred doesn't know who the Dr is and also only knows of the guy from England (via Googling his name) who probably is just another Dr with the same last name.
Thanks.........
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='29310' dateline='1380063817'Thanks.........
David Briggs lives in Melbourne. I think he did work as a medical doctor but does so no longer.
I used to see him around quite a lot ten or more years ago. Last time I saw him was at the Melbourne ANDA fair.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29317' dateline='1380066402'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='29310' dateline='1380063817'Thanks.........
David Briggs lives in Melbourne. I think he did work as a medical doctor but does so no longer.
I used to see him around quite a lot ten or more years ago. Last time I saw him was at the Melbourne ANDA fair.
Thanks emu. Now I have an idea who to contact.
Does he post on any of the forums or is he contactable any other way?
I'll see if I can get contact details.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29321' dateline='1380069662'I'll see if I can get contact details.
Thanks.
If he (or other collectors/researchers) needs to email me it's:
nagbs@outlook.com
Did you find out about the article?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='29457' dateline='1380278455'Did you find out about the article?
Not yet. I know the guy is in Victoria but I can't find the article by looking in Coin and Banknote magazine,the coin collecting blog, the Numismatic Association of Victoria Journal or the Tasmanian Numismatist. Is there anywhere else online that I should search? I understand Mark from Strand coins will be in the US for another 2 weeks so I can't get more details from him of where he saw the article. Frustrating.
I'm guessing a Numismatic Association of Australia or Australian Numismatic Society article but the first only has up to 2005 online and the latter has no publications online.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='29515' dateline='1380330634'I'm guessing a Numismatic Association of Australia or Australian Numismatic Society article but the first only has up to 2005 online and the latter has no publications online.
Hi Mr T
JNAA is available online until the 2010 issue and notes that the issues go online when the printed copy is available. For ANS I might have to go to the Mitchell Library as they have up to June 2013 issue.
Does anyone have Paul Hollands email address? He seems to be the most erudite of the researchers on the subject but there seem to be a few minor equivocatable points in his research in JNAA that I need to clear up.
Trying to sort out 1920 is taking me deeper into the rabbit hole of the conflicting research of previous numismatists :Alvarin_33:
Ah, right you are.
pholland@thorleaf.com is given as his email at the end of the "Master dies and tools from the Royal Mint for Australian pennies and halfpennies of George V" article in the JNAA.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='29534' dateline='1380362271'Ah, right you are.
pholland@thorleaf.com is given as his email at the end of the "Master dies and tools from the Royal Mint for Australian pennies and halfpennies of George V" article in the JNAA.
Thanks, I should of realised that people now put their email addresses in articles now.
No worries.
Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='30458' dateline='1381461081'Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18
Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:
Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA
[attachment=2385]
[attachment=2386]
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='30526' dateline='1381474164'Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA
need better photos to ID it
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='30568' dateline='1381483993'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='30526' dateline='1381474164'Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA
need better photos to ID it
Behold better photos for identification
[attachment=2390]
[attachment=2389]
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='30574' dateline='1381487473'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='30568' dateline='1381483993'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='30526' dateline='1381474164'Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA
need better photos to ID it
Behold better photos for identification
The coin is a Dot Over Top.
It has a lovely distinctive die marker on the lower half of the right leg of the 3rd A.
A very scarce coin.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='30518' dateline='1381472132'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='30458' dateline='1381461081'Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18
Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:
Hi Again...are they both dot-unders with the filled die or is the first one a possible no dots.? TIA.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='30584' dateline='1381490238'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='30518' dateline='1381472132'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='30458' dateline='1381461081'Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18
Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:
Hi Again...are they both dot-unders with the filled die or is the first one a possible no dots.? TIA.
It isn't possible to be 100% sure when trying to prove a negative, but I examined about 60 coins last month with the rim groove and for the reverse I found that all but 3 had either a dot (often faint) or a distinct die clash. The 3 exceptions were fairly low grade and battered, so most likely to be dot below.
Until I see a 1920 English with a different obverse or reverse working die to the 3 known pairs I have to go with the odds that both those coins are Dot Below English.
I should add that the problem isn't a filled die but that the dot was weakly punched and normal circulation wear knocked the dot about. If die fill was the problem then the coins with the clashed die (spurs) would be the coins to mostly suffer a lack of visible dot. But weak/missing dots are random between early and late die stage coins and mostly related to how worn, battered, green and stained the coins are.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='30593' dateline='1381494270'
It isn't possible to be 100% sure when trying to prove a negative, but I examined about 60 coins last month with the rim groove and for the reverse I found that all but 3 had either a dot (often faint) or a distinct die clash. The 3 exceptions were fairly low grade and battered, so most likely to be dot below.
Until I see a 1920 English with a different obverse or reverse working die to the 3 known pairs I have to go with the odds that both those coins are Dot Below English.
I should add that the problem isn't a filled die but that the dot was weakly punched and normal circulation wear knocked the dot about. If die fill was the problem then the coins with the clashed die (spurs) would be the coins to mostly suffer a lack of visible dot. But weak/missing dots are random between early and late die stage coins and mostly related to how worn, battered, green and stained the coins are.
[/quote]
Thanks for Info.,very helpful, i've never bothered much about 1920's over the years,only thing i was ever interested in was whether there was a dot over the top scroll or not but since i have a bit of spare time i'm starting to take an interest in the English Obverse.
Just wondering if this 1920 penny is anything special.It
seems to just have a dot over the bottom scroll
[attachment=2413]
[attachment=2414]
[attachment=2416]
[attachment=2415]
Hi Steve
Your coin is from the most commonly found die pair of the dot aboves. It accounted for 90 of the 204 dot aboves I've added since Nov '11. It has an identifying die marker of a dot to the left of the fork of Y. The coin is from the early-mid die stage as the filling of the inner ring from 3 to 5 o'clock isn't too extensive.
Very ordinary grade, a little grotty but no serious faults.
so is the translation to all that - the coin is a single dot above and not a die filed double?
cheers Robbie
ps - is the die marker the small cud on inside of the fork of the Y - top left side?
this one has been a bug bear for me
all other opinions deem it a die filled double dot
the lumpy reverse surface doesn't help matters either
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/1920DOTABOVETOPSCROLL4_zps95fb4097.jpg)
Hello Robbiegal
No, Steves coin is a dot above bottom scroll (I know I shouldn't use "dot above" without specifying top or bottom scroll, but even I won't pick up 204 dot above top scrolls in under 2 years).
For your rough surfaced coins I would go with Double Dot, there might be a hint of the die flaw W (but can't be certain) but it seems to be a spur (die clash between the NN) and most Double Dots have at least one spur (Dot over Top coins have not been seen with a die clash AFAIK).
ta
I had two other pics but photobucket is a buggar on Friday nights
Thanks again for Info.,this one on Ebay has the same dot/mark 3/4 of the way to the top on the first leg of the 2nd N.,something i haven't noticed before,this means there are a lot of double dots wrongly ID.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australian-Penny-Dot-over-Top-Scroll-Extremely-Rare-Coin-Bubbles-Good-/221300300880?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3386869c50&_uhb=1
it's back up again for me
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/1920DOTABOVETOPSCROLL10_zps64939768.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/1920DOTABOVETOPSCROLL2_zpse49a9fed.jpg)
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='31425' dateline='1382093567'it's back up again for me
Happy Days
drives me bonkers
These dots & English Obverses are driving me bonkers,i collected 1920's for 40 years and the only criteria for myself was whether there was a dot over the top scroll or not.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31485' dateline='1382138953'These dots & English Obverses are driving me bonkers,i collected 1920's for 40 years and the only criteria for myself was whether there was a dot over the top scroll or not.
Basil, when did you first start knowing about/collecting the Dot Over Top variety? Nowhere was the variety mentioned/listed until 1985 when John Sharples included it in his research.
Even Phil Bird only had it as a form of filled die Double Dot as late as his Bi-Centenary issue (1987).
The first mainstream listing was by Phil Bird in about 1996 in ACR.
Any other old hands please feel free to add their recollections on collecting the varieties of 1920
Yeah,in the early days(1960's) when i started they were all(AFAIK) classed as "double dots" but i meant when sorting thru. piles of Coins the first thing you looked for in a 1920 was whether it had a dot over the top scroll,not anything else. The first 1920 DD i owned was purchased from a dealer,similar price to a 1925 and about half that of a 1919 DD.,times & Ebay have sure changed things.
Renniks 4th edition(1966).
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/Coin_Forum_resize.jpg)
Thanks Basil.
The 1920 DD is way more common than 1919 DD, maybe as common as 1925, still surprising how expensive the 1920 DD was back then. Not that I would remember, I was only born in '63.
I'm your senior by 10 years,LOL,No,thanks to you,i've learnt a lot and are now looking more closely at 1920's Pennies.The official 1925 mintage figures may be wrong and blend into 1926 but its a bit late to sort that out now.
I will take a bunch of 1925's @ $12.50 each please mister.!!!:angel:
Quote from: 'Robster' pid='31507' dateline='1382160020'I will take a bunch of 1925's @ $12.50 each please mister.!!!:angel:
:laugh2: ....... he will probably do a bunch of 5's for that .........
John Dean
1st Edition 1964
1965 Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue.
1919 - 1920 Pennys.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Deans1965Cat_1140_zps7b24e806.jpg)
Thanks for posting that FP!
I love P20E!
Quote from: 'Robster' pid='31507' dateline='1382160020'I will take a bunch of 1925's @ $12.50 each please mister.!!!:angel:
You are getting ripped off at $12.50. My time machine (old Spinks catalogue) has FDC 1925 pennies at about a shilling each. Or how about a proof Canberra florin at 2 and 6 or patterns and other delicacies (Holey Dollars, Adelaide pounds etc) at a pound or 2 each.
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='31512' dateline='1382160922'John Dean
1st Edition 1964
1965 Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue.
1919 - 1920 Pennys.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Deans1965Cat_1140_zps7b24e806.jpg)
I can't find my Dean book
and was thinking about it after reading the posts
you read my mind!!
excellent thanks
QuoteOr how about a proof Canberra florin at 2 and 6
:Alvarin_33::drooling::beg:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='31532' dateline='1382179409'QuoteOr how about a proof Canberra florin at 2 and 6
:Alvarin_33::drooling::beg:
Just checked my time machine (1929) and it was a bit more than that (a pound,oops). For 1919 and 1920 (Sydney) pennies it was 2 pounds 10 shillings each (must be proofs or specimen as they were listed as RRR and the Canberra proof as RR).
By 1940 they had Proof 1939 pennies at 1'6 or Proof roo halfpennies at 2 shillings, Proof '38 florins at 5 shillings, FDC florins for 1914 and 1915 at 3 shillings.
Downies in 1971 had 1920 Double Dots at $1.25 each or 10 for $10 and 1925 at $3 each, $27 for 10 and $250 for 100.
Basil, you got ripped off.:taunt:
Yeah,by 1971 the collecting frenzy caused by the changeover to Decimal currency was subsiding but Dealers had massive hoards of the scarcer dates & varieties.In the early 1960's the 1920 DD & 1919 DD were rarely traded,collectors who found them usually kept them so Dealers had a premium on the retail price.
While i have the book(1966) out,interesting to see the prices for 1914 & 1946 in relation to each other & other low mints.Mintage figures listed for 1925 are interesting and probaly closer to the mark than 117,000.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0002.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10136/IMG_0001.jpg)
I don't think 1,639,200 minted for 1925 is anywhere close to the mark, I believe that figure includes the pennies struck in 1925 at Sydney and Sydney only used 1924 dated dies that year. I have alot of the old catalogues and they are either copy and pastes from each other (copying the errors) or they are just plain wrong. If you go off old surveys (before things had been cherrypicked) the 1925 was much too scarce to have 1.6 million out there; Bond (1945) in a survey found that 1914 were found at 4 per 1000 but 1925 was under 1 per 1000, that was in Sydney. A survey in South Australia (1960-63) found that 1925 was more common than 1914 there (but still scarce).
Yeah,who knows,when i was at School in the 1960's there was a lot of conjecture on the 1925 Mintages as we moved to Decimal currency,i think the official mintage figures have been revised several times over the years,MPO is its way more than the currently accepted figure of 117,000.
I was just reading the 1964 John Dean book page that was posted,he's way off the mark with the assessment of the 1919 DD as a possible false variety,P19G. The top dot with the moat is a bit different to the normal top dot but all genuine 1919 DD Pennies have the little bar over the first Ä of Australia,this was common knowledge back in the 1960's so not sure where's he's coming from or i've completely misinterpreted what he's saying.(which is highly likely these days).
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31662' dateline='1382325302'I was just reading the 1964 John Dean book page that was posted,he's way off the mark with the assessment of the 1919 DD as a possible false variety,P19G. The top dot with the moat is a bit different to the normal top dot but all genuine 1919 DD Pennies have the little bar over the first Ä of Australia,this was common knowledge back in the 1960's so not sure where's he's coming from or i've completely misinterpreted what he's saying.(which is highly likely these days).
Dean was clearly the best catalogue, but even it had some errors. There is a false double dot for 1919 as well as the genuine article.
I think that I have one
i'll try to dig it out tonight and take a photo
here goes guys
1919 false dot (die chip dot)
(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA2000482_zps65ca234b.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA2000502_zps0d5a029f.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA2000504_zpsb9fa08d0.jpg)(http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/auntyrobbs/PA2000503_zpsf84b1aa5.jpg)
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='29322' dateline='1380072954'Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29321' dateline='1380069662'I'll see if I can get contact details.
Thanks.
If he (or other collectors/researchers) needs to email me it's:
nagbs@outlook.com
Neal did you get the PM I sent you?
ps feathers
you ID'd that 1919 die chip variety for me a couple of years back
Easy ID on that one,no bar over the A,similar coins bob up on Ebay from time to time.The 1919 DD variety that has the moat type dot over the top scroll still has the bar over the A,or at least the genuine ones do.
Quote from: 'emu666' pid='31697' dateline='1382348170'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='29322' dateline='1380072954'Quote from: 'emu666' pid='29321' dateline='1380069662'I'll see if I can get contact details.
Thanks.
If he (or other collectors/researchers) needs to email me it's:
nagbs@outlook.com
Neal did you get the PM I sent you?
Yes Peter, thanks for that.
Very interesting reading because I noodled what I thought was 3 x 1919 double dot pennies from a bulk lot last week and will now have to dig them out and have another look
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='31759' dateline='1382391895'Very interesting reading because I noodled what I thought was 3 x 1919 double dot pennies from a bulk lot last week and will now have to dig them out and have another look
Great find even if only 1 is a genuine coin.The Triton page has a photo of the 'moat type' upper dot but it still has the bar over the A,the other type is the normal smaller dot with bar over A.I'm no expert on all this but thats how i understand it all.Nearly out of Monthly Internet Download limit so will post some photos next Month.
http://www.triton.vg/P19.html
I have been following this thread and would like to congratulate all those who are assisting in providing some great information for those who would otherwise remain uninformed.!!
I will be using this thread in the near future to glean information.!! Congrats.!:ok:
Quote from: 'Robster' pid='31764' dateline='1382393035'I have been following this thread and would like to congratulate all those who are assisting in providing some great information for those who would otherwise remain uninformed.!!
I will be using this thread in the near future to glean information.!! Congrats.!:ok:
Enthusiasts posting their knowledge is how we all learn. I have to thank Dave Guy for posting on the (defunct) Oztion forum his opinion that all CBLs are dot below. Inspired me to check if that was true (I was unsure) and that got me checking the "no Dot" English.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31761' dateline='1382392570'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='31759' dateline='1382391895'Very interesting reading because I noodled what I thought was 3 x 1919 double dot pennies from a bulk lot last week and will now have to dig them out and have another look
Great find even if only 1 is a genuine coin.The Triton page has a photo of the 'moat type' upper dot but it still has the bar over the A,the other type is the normal smaller dot with bar over A.I'm no expert on all this but thats how i understand it all.Nearly out of Monthly Internet Download limit so will post some photos next Month.
http://www.triton.vg/P19.html
On rechecking it was actually 3 x 1920 double dot that I found but only 2 x 1919 double dot or so I thought.One of the 1919 pennies is definately double dot and this is the other one , sorry about the photos taken quickly with my phone
[attachment=2423]
[attachment=2424]
I don't think so,dots a bit high and to the right and i can't see bar over A. Just MO thou.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31844' dateline='1382414529'I don't think so,dots a bit high and to the right and i can't see bar over A. Just MO thou.
The dot is actually a bit to the left.The other mark is a bit of fluff .I'll have to post a better photo later when I get more time
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31844' dateline='1382414529'I don't think so,dots a bit high and to the right and i can't see bar over A. Just MO thou.
I'm pretty sure this one is a 1919 double dot
[attachment=2428][attachment=2429]
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='31863' dateline='1382426689'Quote from: 'Basil' pid='31844' dateline='1382414529'I don't think so,dots a bit high and to the right and i can't see bar over A. Just MO thou.
I'm pretty sure this one is a 1919 double dot
I'm pretty sure it isn't. Looks more like the false double dot.
I agree,the key is always the bar over A,its always there,even if a bit faint from a soft/poor strike. Maybe someone in the future may possibly ID a variety of 1919 DD with it missing but i've never seen a genuine coin yet without it.
Quote from: 'Basil' pid='32089' dateline='1382580880'I agree,the key is always the bar over A,its always there,even if a bit faint from a soft/poor strike. Maybe someone in the future may possibly ID a variety of 1919 DD with it missing but i've never seen a genuine coin yet without it.
It's good to know about all of these little markers as I have a little bag of 1919 and 1920 pennies that I am reluctant to release until I know what's going on with all of these dots and dashes
Just picked this one up out of a bulk lot and it looks like a London
Obverse Dot below bottom scroll in VF condition.Anybody know if this is one of
the scarce varieties?
[attachment=2541]
[attachment=2542]
Nice find.
Its a dot below London.
These are scarce especially in better than average grade - but not rare.
Good one,
An oxymoron but it is the most "common" :angel:
of these die pairings.
Usually found in about VG grade catching a higher
grade one is a bonus.
Die crack at IN of IND
Indent/groove to rim
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/steves1920_LondonObvType1_zpsa19c0270.jpg)
A nicer than average grade coin, nice clear dot, no detracting marks and always a big bonus to find. Well done.
As noted by Ford it is the "common" variety, about twice as common as the other die pair.
Nice find and in that grade you are very lucky. Nice coin
Did you ever find the article nealeffendi? I'm getting a book on Australian bronze coins by a Dr David L Briggs as a gift early in January but I'm not sure when the book was published or whether there's any mention of the penny in question.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='37105' dateline='1386985735'Did you ever find the article nealeffendi? I'm getting a book on Australian bronze coins by a Dr David L Briggs as a gift early in January but I'm not sure when the book was published or whether there's any mention of the penny in question.
I have had a series of emails with David. His book is sold out so I'm waiting for the next edition, you are lucky to get one as he even sold his own copy.
I found a 1920 double dot in one of penny sets
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='37408' dateline='1387324004'I have had a series of emails with David. His book is sold out so I'm waiting for the next edition, you are lucky to get one as he even sold his own copy.
Yes it's almost like the book doesn't exist.
Any information on the dot over top scroll London die?
Quote from: 'black sheep' pid='37575' dateline='1387528597'I found a 1920 double dot in one of penny sets
not bad mate
I don't believe that I have ever found one with a centre diamond
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='37653' dateline='1387602518'Quote from: 'black sheep' pid='37575' dateline='1387528597'I found a 1920 double dot in one of penny sets
not bad mate
I don't believe that I have ever found one with a centre diamond
There are still plenty of them out there so I've recently discovered
Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='37664' dateline='1387605228'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='37653' dateline='1387602518'Quote from: 'black sheep' pid='37575' dateline='1387528597'I found a 1920 double dot in one of penny sets
not bad mate
I don't believe that I have ever found one with a centre diamond
There are still plenty of them out there so I've recently discovered
I have to agree, the double dot was from a single die that struck lots of coins, probably more than the 3 English dies and dot over top combined.
Still is nice to find one, especially in a decent grade.
As for the Dot Over Top English.... I'll hold my final word until after I read Davids book.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='37891' dateline='1387759616'As for the Dot Over Top English.... I'll hold my final word until after I read Davids book.
Well I got my hands on the book.
The image given for the London obverse dot over top scroll appears to be of the same coin in image 14 in your and Fred Lever's article in the December/January Coin and Banknote magazine.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='39081' dateline='1389075378'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='37891' dateline='1387759616'As for the Dot Over Top English.... I'll hold my final word until after I read Davids book.
Well I got my hands on the book.
The image given for the London obverse dot over top scroll appears to be of the same coin in image 14 in your and Fred Lever's article in the December/January Coin and Banknote magazine.
Thanks Mr T.
So it has the line through IND? (the obverse has that fault). Davids a top notch collector with a first rate collection, but (like all of us) he makes mistakes (it is how we learn) and I'm 99.9% convinced that he has misidentified a ding as a dot (Fred has done that, so have I). Having a few hundred 1920 English I have seen plenty of random dings but it all ultimately comes down to 3 die pairs for the English and a different die pair for the Dot Above Top.
BTW where did you obtain your copy? I'm looking to buy one and I don't know who is selling them.
Fred emailed me last week, another installment likely in the Feb issue of CAB.
I don't think the photo is good enough to see that but it does have the rim fault above BRITT.
I agree that a mistake is possible but the book goes on to say that 14 dot over top scroll London were found in 1000 1920 pennies (21 dot under bottom scroll London were also found). One would think more than one had a proper visible dot.
I got my copy of ebay. No idea what the primary source was.
What's the next article going to cover?
Mister T,
Does Dr Briggs book have a Title and ISBN No. ?:idea:
Title is:
Australian
Copper (Bronze)
Coins
1911 - 1964
Including All Dies &
Die Pairing
Also Varieties & Errors
Intermediate Standard
There is no ISBN I can see.
Thanks for that info Mister T.
No worries.
Is the mark above the CO mentioned in the last article the raised lines between the denticles in the image?
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='37891' dateline='1387759616'Quote from: 'stevo1962' pid='37664' dateline='1387605228'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='37653' dateline='1387602518'Quote from: 'black sheep' pid='37575' dateline='1387528597'I found a 1920 double dot in one of penny sets
not bad mate
I don't believe that I have ever found one with a centre diamond
There are still plenty of them out there so I've recently discovered
I have to agree, the double dot was from a single die that struck lots of coins, probably more than the 3 English dies and dot over top combined.
Still is nice to find one, especially in a decent grade.
As for the Dot Over Top English.... I'll hold my final word until after I read Davids book.
My experience is the same as Neal's.
A few years ago at work we had a large penny (and halfpenny) hoard that was originally sourced from all around the country. Out of about 1500 1920 dated pennies, there were just 5 dot above top scroll; all of those were Indian obverse:
http://www.stuartandersen.com.au/hoard/copper.html
emu, I quoted that reference in one of the articles I wrote with Fred. IIRC there was also a horrible Dot Above English that was on sale for $1495, was that the one from the horde?
Dot Above Top are all from the same die, not easy to mistake another reverse die for it.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='39180' dateline='1389247810'emu, I quoted that reference in one of the articles I wrote with Fred. IIRC there was also a horrible Dot Above English that was on sale for $1495, was that the one from the horde?
Yes, horrible but rare.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='39112' dateline='1389138663'Title is:
Australian
Copper (Bronze)
Coins
1911 - 1964
Including All Dies &
Die Pairing
Also Varieties & Errors
Intermediate Standard
There is no ISBN I can see.
There's one on ebay at the moment for anyone interested: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/australian-copper-bronze-coins-1911-1964-by-bavid-briggs-photo-descriptions/191191698926?_trksid=p11010.c100136.m2769&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140212115136%26meid%3D7271242584995698900%26pid%3D100136%26prg%3D20140212115136%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D181417331583/?ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:AU:3160
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='50749' dateline='1401494707'Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='39112' dateline='1389138663'Title is:
Australian
Copper (Bronze)
Coins
1911 - 1964
Including All Dies &
Die Pairing
Also Varieties & Errors
Intermediate Standard
There is no ISBN I can see.
There's one on ebay at the moment for anyone interested: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/australian-copper-bronze-coins-1911-1964-by-bavid-briggs-photo-descriptions/191191698926?_trksid=p11010.c100136.m2769&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140212115136%26meid%3D7271242584995698900%26pid%3D100136%26prg%3D20140212115136%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D181417331583/?ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:AU:3160
I'm tempted, but that is a very stiff price for a modest sized booklet. Better to wait for 2nd edition.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50765' dateline='1401499089'I'm tempted, but that is a very stiff price for a modest sized booklet. Better to wait for 2nd edition.
Is there a second edition coming?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='53183' dateline='1403316666'Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='50765' dateline='1401499089'I'm tempted, but that is a very stiff price for a modest sized booklet. Better to wait for 2nd edition.
Is there a second edition coming?
I had a few emails some months ago with the good Doctor and he did say that he would be getting around to it. Like all of us he probably has other things to do first so if it doesn't happen:dontknow: