I'd be interested to know if anyone has a 1920 plain London die penny or has even seen one.
I'm aware of the dot below type and the dot above.
I came across http://www.tdkapdc.com.au/australian-penny2c-1920-no-dot-london.html recently but it could well be that the dots are just worn away.
Have you chatted to nealeffendi on CCF about it? He seems to be on top of the 1920 penny and doesn't think such a coin exists.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='25743' dateline='1377083434'I came across http://www.tdkapdc.com.au/australian-penny2c-1920-no-dot-london.html recently but it could well be that the dots are just worn away.
Have you chatted to nealeffendi on CCF about it? He seems to be on top of the 1920 penny and doesn't think such a coin exists.
This one has the die crack through IND which indicates dot below.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='25737' dateline='1377080270'I'd be interested to know if anyone has a 1920 plain London die penny or has even seen one.
I'm aware of the dot below type and the dot above.
In my gallery
No Indent rim, no IN die crack on Obverse
No Die chip to E of Penny, no die crack last A CommonweAlth
and of course , No dot below scroll.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/1920_English_Obverse_No_Dots_Pair.jpg)
That's fantastic.
Would have to be one of the rarest Aussie pre-decimals.
Thanks for posting the pics.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='25755' dateline='1377088719'That's fantastic.
Would have to be one of the rarest Aussie pre-decimals.
Thanks for posting the pics.
Very scarce, yes rare no.
The good Dr Peter & D. Guy reckon
similar numbers to the '23 Halfpenny.
It's the only one I've got and have been
collecting for 57 years ::angel:
FP, have you shown that one to Nealeffendi?
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='25764' dateline='1377097147'FP, have you shown that one to Nealeffendi?
Not going to happen.
Haven't posted on CCf for nearly 6months now.
Can't maintain being active on multiple forums and I
choose this one.(I do have a read of it sometimes)
As a side note I don't recall "Nealeffendi" ever
post an image of any coin he discusses.
No worries FP.
I understand what you mean with the multiple forums and do agree this is far better (thanks to all concerned Mark & PPH etc), though I feel sorry some times for those who may not know we exist (though they could be here and I just don't know it). Heaven forbid, it took me long enough to turn up!
I am supposed to have one in my collection so I will get it out later and do a couple of scans so you can see mine.
Here are the scans of my 1920 1d's: The middle coin is the plain no do coin. The other two scans are the close ups of the bottom and top scrolls.
That would be great Goldie ..... thanks!
Í thought I found an 85 rabbit ears the other day ..... alas ...... it was just crud. But, that thread did bring to my attention the dancing man hat cud which I didn't know of either ...... I managed to find one last week :yahoo:
Just keep reading all the posts of this forum and jot down all the errors/faults mentioned there in. That's the way I taught myself all or most of the errors that I find plus those I find that have not had been mentioned before.
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='25896' dateline='1377163317'That would be great Goldie ..... thanks!
Í thought I found an 85 rabbit ears the other day ..... alas ...... it was just crud. But, that thread did bring to my attention the dancing man hat cud which I didn't know of either ...... I managed to find one last week :yahoo:
View my previous comment re the scans of the coins.......
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='25748' dateline='1377085487'No Indent rim, no IN die crack on Obverse
No Die chip to E of Penny, no die crack last A CommonweAlth
and of course , No dot below scroll.
How do you know those characteristics match up with a no dot reverse?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='25998' dateline='1377250493'Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='25748' dateline='1377085487'No Indent rim, no IN die crack on Obverse
No Die chip to E of Penny, no die crack last A CommonweAlth
and of course , No dot below scroll.
How do you know those characteristics match up with a no dot reverse?
Mister T
You don't won't these characteristics on your Plain Penny.
They appear on the Dot Under types.
The Indent Obverse is a Dot Under characteristic, you can't miss it.
There will also be a die crack between IN of IND.
English Obverse Dot Under, Die pair 1(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/CCF%20Coin%20Forum/1920_Indent_Obv_DotUnder_zpsde018e78.jpg)
The die chip on reverse type is characteristic of :-
English Obverse Dot Under, Die pair 2This obverse does not have the indent to rim or
the die crack between IN of IND.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Diechip_zps3714364f.jpg)
Is there any reason it couldn't be a third obverse die used with a dot under reverse (or even with a dot over reverse) or am I missing something?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='26099' dateline='1377386335'Is there any reason it couldn't be a third obverse die used with a dot under reverse (or even with a dot over reverse)
None what so ever.
The 1930 English Obv is the obvious example.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='26099' dateline='1377386335'or am I missing something?
What is missing is an example of a coin that
cannot be classified under the current known
four die pairings and their characteristics.
So there are four known London dies used with the 1920 pennies?
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='26154' dateline='1377422485'So there are four known London dies used with the 1920 pennies?
He said "four die pairings" that doesn't imply 4 dies, let alone London dies, does it? :ok:
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='26154' dateline='1377422485'So there are four known London dies used with the 1920 pennies?
There are Four known
English Obverse Die pairings.
English for Obverse
London is used for reverse die.
1:Dot under scroll,
Indent on Obv,
Known die crack between IN of IND on obverse.
2:Dot under scroll, No obverse characteristics,
Die chip top of E of penny.
Known die clash between NN of penny
Known die crack A of Commonwealth.
3:Plain Reverse.
Flat planchet very flat strike.
Denticle pattern poorly struck up
4:Dot over scroll.
Dot plainly seen in all known examples, so-far.
Quote from: 'r9453' pid='26159' dateline='1377424345'Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='26154' dateline='1377422485'So there are four known London dies used with the 1920 pennies?
He said "four die pairings" that doesn't imply 4 dies, let alone London dies, does it? :ok:
Yes it does :angel:
Ah, interesting.
How is it known that die pair 3 is a no dot reverse though? Is there some high grade example with not dots that matches the description?
Quote from: 'Fordprefect' pid='25757' dateline='1377089367'Quote from: 'echidna' pid='25755' dateline='1377088719'That's fantastic.
Would have to be one of the rarest Aussie pre-decimals.
Thanks for posting the pics.
Very scarce, yes rare no.
The good Dr Peter & D. Guy reckon
similar numbers to the '23 Halfpenny.
It's the only one I've got and have been
collecting for 57 years ::angel:
Hi, got recommended to this forum to follow up this coin:imnewhere:
Are you certain it isn't a die chip E coin? The die chip can be weak (or removed by unscrupulous dealers). The obverse die of your coin appears to be the same die that was paired with the die chip E reverse. There are multiple identifying features on the obverse of die chip E coins and I can see one above the crown just to the right of the cross pattee (a tiny dot above the first pearl, to the lower left of OMN).
There were only 2 English obverse dies left in Melb according to Sharples so for a no dot to exist it would either have to be made in Sydney or Perth (like the dot above English), or it would have to share an obverse with either of the dot below English reverse dies. That is conceivable but unlikely as there are no known examples of a FBL dot below sharing an obverse.
The lack of a die crack through A isn't significant as only half the die chip E coins have this fault. The dot is also often worn/dinged and not readily apparent.
BTW if you only got one in 57 years then it is more than very scarce.
If genuine then you are very lucky, I've looked HARD for years and have seen over 100 coins that were advertised as no dot but they were all dot below.:icon_cry:
Welcome to the forum, will be great to peruse your findings.!!
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='25893' dateline='1377162943'I am supposed to have one in my collection so I will get it out later and do a couple of scans so you can see mine.
Here are the scans of my 1920 1d's: The middle coin is the plain no do coin. The other two scans are the close ups of the bottom and top scrolls.
Are you sure it is a No Dot? There seems to be something faint suggestive of a dot close to the scroll and slightly offset to the left. I also cannot see any of the die markers of the 4 most common No Dot dies (and they account for 95% of the No Dot coins).
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='28477' dateline='1379381888'Are you certain it isn't a die chip E coin?
Looking at the image again it looks like there is something above the E but it looks to be a little different to the die chip in Fordprefect's image on the previous page.
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='28679' dateline='1379499686'Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='25893' dateline='1377162943'I am supposed to have one in my collection so I will get it out later and do a couple of scans so you can see mine.
Here are the scans of my 1920 1d's: The middle coin is the plain no do coin. The other two scans are the close ups of the bottom and top scrolls.
Are you sure it is a No Dot? There seems to be something faint suggestive of a dot close to the scroll and slightly offset to the left. I also cannot see any of the die markers of the 4 most common No Dot dies (and they account for 95% of the No Dot coins).
I shall re do the scans of these pennies and re post the pickies. I shall upload them into the Gallery and bring them over. That way the scans will be HUGE.
Here are new scans of the four 1920 1d's in my collection. Sorry for the large scans:
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10120/1920_Dot_Above_Scroll_1d.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10120/1920_Dot_Below_Bottom_Scroll.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10120/1920_Double_Dot_1d.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10120/1920_No_Dot_1d.jpg)
They're nice size images Goldie (for a blind bat like me).
Would you be able to include the obvserses too?
Goldseeker
Your first coin is a dot above Indian (it has a dot under the first A so is the second most common die pair). The second is a dot below (probably the English obverse with rim mark RITT' struck during the first half of the dies life), the third is a double dot (worn coin off a fresh die) and the fourth appears to be a no dot (is there a very fine diecrack between the base of 19?, if it is then it is the third most common no dot die pair, probably struck about a third of the way through the dies life).
Nice images, I've still got to learn how to use a digital camera to upload images (then I'll have to learn how to upload images:blush:)
Goldseeker
Your first coin is a dot above Indian (it has a dot under the first A so is the second most common die pair). The second is a dot below (probably the English obverse with rim mark RITT), the third is a double dot and the fourth appears to be a no dot.
Nice images, I've still got to learn how to use a digital camera to upload images (then I'll have to learn how to upload images:blush:)
Thanks for that and I am happy now.