What's the difference between a specimen coin & an early decimal proof coin?
Is it the blanks
or
Is it the dies
or
a combination of both?
would like to clarify if possible
Quote from: 'interest' pid='24609' dateline='1376273309'What's the difference between a specimen coin & an early decimal proof coin?
Is it the blanks
or
Is it the dies
or
a combination of both?
would like to clarify if possible
That is a really good question, of which I don't have a definitive answer.
Both the early proofs and the newer "Specimen" coins have a similar look to them.
They both have excellent strikes and have nice polished fields.
The only Specimen coins I have come from the wedding sets from 2002-2009 and the Captain Cook coins in the wee red plastic cases, All the coins I have from Mint sets I consider as Business Strikes.
So the Specimen coins are pretty much proofs without the obligatory frosting used on modern proofs.
Just my take on these, I am probably wrong but that is my theory :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='24615' dateline='1376274397'The only Specimen coins I have come from the wedding sets from 2002-2009 and the Captain Cook coins in the wee red plastic cases
So the Specimen coins are pretty much proofs without the obligatory frosting used on modern proofs.
Me too, the only specimen coins I have are the wedding sets and the Captain Cook. The Captain Cook proof is a bit 'frosty' compared to the specimen.
Imo, the Captain Cook specimen is not very similar to the wedding set specimens. The wedding sets are highly reflective, mirror-like. :-/
QuoteImo, the Captain Cook specimen is not very similar to the wedding set specimens. The wedding sets are highly reflective, mirror-like. Undecided
The wedding sets are also 32 years younger AND housed better that the Cook coins .
I imagine that the Cook coins looked the same as the wedding sets when minted But the way they are cased has caused environmental damage to them.
The "Purple toning" IS indicative of this :ok:
Its hard to capture images of these wedding set critters:
(http://users.tpg.com.au/r9453//2004.TwentyCent.jpg)
Quote from: 'trout' pid='24615' dateline='1376274397'Quote from: 'interest' pid='24609' dateline='1376273309'What's the difference between a specimen coin & an early decimal proof coin?
Is it the blanks
or
Is it the dies
or
a combination of both?
would like to clarify if possible
That is a really good question, of which I don't have a definitive answer.
Both the early proofs and the newer "Specimen" coins have a similar look to them.
They both have excellent strikes and have nice polished fields.
The only Specimen coins I have come from the wedding sets from 2002-2009 and the Captain Cook coins in the wee red plastic cases, All the coins I have from Mint sets I consider as Business Strikes.
So the Specimen coins are pretty much proofs without the obligatory frosting used on modern proofs.
Just my take on these, I am probably wrong but that is my theory :ok:
Could it be, that the early proofs were just polished blanks used in unison with the polished dies?
Which have since gone on to become the "Specimen" coins as used in the Wedding sets, up until 2009, using the polished blanks, polished dies combination?
Quote from: 'interest' pid='25455' dateline='1376833499'Could it be, that the early proofs were just polished blanks used in unison with the polished dies?
Keeping in mind the reason proofs existed in the first place, most definitely. Its only in recent times that they've become mass-marketed
"bling" bearing no relation to the circulating coins of the same name.
I posted this on CCF some time ago,after seeking info.
I came across this article that says Proof & Specimen Dies are prepared the same way,the last stage of the Planchets preparation is the only difference as I understand it.
Proofs, Patterns and Specimens.
Proof coins represent the very best of the minter's art. Today, they are manufactured from hand-polished dies, are virtually flawless and are superby presented in customised packaging, with strict limits on production.
Originally they were trial coins, hand struck at the start of a mintage, in order that any flaws could be detected and rectified. Then they became a special sample, kept as an example of each mintage. Today, they are considered numismatic coins - of interest to coin collectors - and are sold at fixed prices consistent with their quality and rarity.
For most Australian pre-decimal proof and pattern issues (particularly gold sovereigns and half sovereigns), mint records were poorly kept. Confusion has resulted from references to Proof, Pattern and sometimes Specimen coin strikes, all of which seem to have similar qualities. To overcome these description difficulties, a proof or specimen coin is now defined as a specially prepared coin which also has normal circulating coins issued with the same date and die types. On the other hand, a Pattern is an issue of a particular date and die types for which no circulating coins were issued. Patterns may, and often do, show slight differences from circulation issues as they were usually intended as examples of a change in proposed design, manufacturing process or composition.
Modern proof coins are minted from highly polished dies using specially prepared blanks with a bright surface. Extra pressure is used to strike the coin and often the blank is struck more than once. They are the result of a number of labourous processes. Firstly, the die surface is sand blasted and hand polished using diamond lapping paste applied with soft wooden sticks. A final polish to produce a brilliant mirror finish is achieved with a dental drill covered with a soft pad. Next, the surface of the die is covered with clear tape and a scalpel is used to expose the design areas. Again the die is sand blasted resulting in a frosted finish on exposed design areas. The final process is for the die to be crome plated before being used to strike coins.
The blanks intended to become proof coins are also given special treatment. Prior to striking, they are immersed in a weak acid bath to remove any surface impurities. From that point on, they are only ever handled with gloved hands or special tongs to ensure that the surfaces remain pristine.
Good info accumulator. :good:
I think we All agree that the Wedding set coins are treated and produced in a different manner to the "Business Strike" coins .
My question is, Why is it so hard to get these coins graded by a TPG as SP or PL designated coins ?
I think it is only a matter of time before the major TPG's wake up and realise that these coins ARE different to the "Run of the Mill" decimal coins and start grading them as such.
I have a full set of these coins from 2002-2009 because I consider them to be the Apex quality circulation issue coins for this period and they form separate collection all of their own :good:
These sets are Still reasonably priced and quiet readily available , At the moment.
As soon as these start to get the appropriate grades from the TPG's the sets will either disappear or become far too expensive for the average collector to obtain .
My advice is IF you want these coins in your collection, get them now while they are still affordable and not all in slabs that will undoubtedly increase the costs of obtaining these coins :ok:
Thank you AJ for bringing these coins to my attention , They really are AWSOME coins :good:
So just one more question.
Quote from Peter, thanks.
"Modern proof coins are minted from highly polished dies using specially prepared blanks with a bright surface. Extra pressure is used to strike the coin and often the blank is struck more than once."
"The blanks intended to become proof coins are also given special treatment. Prior to striking, they are immersed in a weak acid bath to remove any surface impurities. From that point on, they are only ever handled with gloved hands or special tongs to ensure that the surfaces remain pristine. " Unquote
What is a coin that has been marked for being a proof coin, blank not polished, just pressed using the proof specially prepared polished dies called?
It can't be a proof.
It can't be a specimen.
As it doesn't meet the criteria of either a proof or a specimen
Here are a couple of scans.
The first is from maccas Book and the second is on the back of a wedding set box.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/wedding_set.jpg)
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/wedding_se1t.jpg)
"Specially Produced gem Uncirculated Coins" to Me infers that these ARE indeed "Specimen" Coins :ok:
Thank you AJ for bringing these coins to my attention
:dodgy: yeah I should have got all of them before I said anything..everyone forget I said anything..forget forget
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='25522' dateline='1376946878'Thank you AJ for bringing these coins to my attention
:dodgy: yeah I should have got all of them before I said anything..everyone forget I said anything..forget forget
Which ones are you still looking for AJ ?
04 and 06 :( but I'll take any I can get :)
I know the wedding sets are Specimen coins up to 2009
not trying to be nasty
but this thread is getting a little off track.
I'm trying to find an answer to a specific question,
really hoping I can get an answer.
Anybody got any ideas?
Quote from: 'interest' pid='24609' dateline='1376273309'What's the difference between a specimen coin & an early decimal proof coin?
Is it the blanks
or
Is it the dies
or
a combination of both?
would like to clarify if possible
sorry interest, bloody trout leads me astray all the time :)
well I'm not really sure but I'd say the dies and they had been getting better over the years with better machines and maybe even the pressure they used as they can get a lot more now..for a very rough e.g. lets say they pressed the old proof with a highly polished die at 100psi but now they can polish the die better and press with let say 400psi so I think a lot has to do with better equipment but in saying that it could also have something to do with the metal they use today..hopefully one of the guns can help..sorry mate and sorry for going :off_topic:
Quote from: 'interest' pid='25535' dateline='1376954929'I know the wedding sets are Specimen coins up to 2009
not trying to be nasty
but this thread is getting a little off track.
I'm trying to find an answer to a specific question,
really hoping I can get an answer.
Anybody got any ideas?
For pre decimals the 34/35 Centenary florin was struck
utilising the Proof dies.
"Busines Strike - notation Utilising Proof Dies"
The planchets were not prepared for Proof Strike.
There are also other pre decimals in the same boat.
Probably Walter would be the bloke to advise on that.
Can the Royal Australian Mint explain this ?
Quote from: 'runway' pid='25627' dateline='1376998412'Can the Royal Australian Mint explain this ?
They have trouble explaining
"lunchtime", so I doubt it. ;)
I bought the Wedding Sets up until they became proof sets that was a very dumb move by the RAM