OK, at Ian's request, here's a place to discuss terminology.
I'll start with a broad generalisation, and add specifics later on.
VARIETY: Variation, generally the result of different dies being used.
ERROR: Repeatable variation from normal, generally due to die damage or wear.
FLAW: One-off, non-repeatable variation, generally due to faults in the material or a mishap in the process.
oh, and just for completeness...
PMD: Accidental or Deliberate Damage inflicted after a coin has been minted.
I don't think any of us would disagree over Varieties and PMD. Although some people call certain errors varieties, and others, such as doubling errors, PMD (on the basis that it occurs a millisecond after the die strikes the planchet).
Errors and Flaws are where the disagreements lie.
Broadly speaking, I see all cuds and cracks as errors. Splits, flakes, rips, tilted collars, brockages, clips, etc as flaws.
But I guess we'd better go through the definitions one by one and categorise them, yes? Ian's glossary would be a great place to start. I'll see if I can find it, or wait for him to put it up online.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='24144' dateline='1375782338'OK, at Ian's request, here's a place to discuss terminology.
I'll start with a broad generalisation, and add specifics later on.
VARIETY: Variation, generally the result of different dies being used.
ERROR: Repeatable variation from normal, generally due to die damage or wear.
FLAW: One-off, non-repeatable variation, generally due to faults in the material or a mishap in the process.
oh, and just for completeness...
PMD: Accidental or Deliberate Damage inflicted after a coin has been minted.
Completely disagree with the pointless splitting of errors and flaws. It goes against absolutely everything I have been taught and read. And you'll be exactly the first person I know who thinks a broadstrike is not an error.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='24145' dateline='1375782668'Completely disagree with the pointless splitting of errors and flaws. It goes against absolutely everything I have been taught and read. And you'll be exactly the first person I know who thinks a broadstrike is not an error.
Oh goody... I get to be a pioneer! :yahoo:
Show me a bag full of identical broadstrikes and I'll happily change my stance. When I can add the 1984 $1 broadstrike alongside my 1984 $1 rabbit ears, I'll accept them as errors. :)
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='24144' dateline='1375782338'OK, at Ian's request, here's a place to discuss terminology.
I'll start with a broad generalisation, and add specifics later on.
VARIETY: Variation, generally the result of different dies being used.
ERROR: Repeatable variation from normal, generally due to die damage or wear.
FLAW: One-off, non-repeatable variation, generally due to faults in the material or a mishap in the process.
oh, and just for completeness...
PMD: Accidental or Deliberate Damage inflicted after a coin has been minted.
I don't think any of us would disagree over Varieties and PMD. Although some people call certain errors varieties, and others, such as doubling errors, PMD (on the basis that it occurs a millisecond after the die strikes the planchet).
Errors and Flaws are where the disagreements lie.
Broadly speaking, I see all cuds and cracks as errors. Splits, flakes, rips, tilted collars, brockages, clips, etc as flaws.
But I guess we'd better go through the definitions one by one and categorise them, yes? Ian's glossary would be a great place to start. I'll see if I can find it, or wait for him to put it up online.
I would classify PMD as being technically outside the mint.
My understanding is that some proof coins were polished ie abrasively cleaned at the mint...
And some were burnished and some were lacquered.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='24146' dateline='1375782974'Quote from: 'markn' pid='24145' dateline='1375782668'Completely disagree with the pointless splitting of errors and flaws. It goes against absolutely everything I have been taught and read. And you'll be exactly the first person I know who thinks a broadstrike is not an error.
Oh goody... I get to be a pioneer! :yahoo:
Show me a bag full of identical broadstrikes and I'll happily change my stance. When I can add the 1984 $1 broadstrike alongside my 1984 $1 rabbit ears, I'll accept them as errors. :)
Die cracks are not all the same, the get bigger and more cracks appear. So they are very much not all the same or repeatable. Die wear progresses. So therefore saying all coins struck from the same pair of worn dies are the same is also quite wrong.
As I said. You're exactly the first person I know who says a broadstrike is not an error. And yes it makes you a pioneer. It also makes you wrong. You may think you have discovered something new or are bringing some revelation to the hobby by creating this artificial distinction but I think you're just confusing things for no reason.
And if any of you are wondering why I am calling Fulvio out on this then here's my reason. Great, let's have a thread with definitions. Wonderful. But let's make them the generally accepted definitions, generally accepted by the VAST majority of coin collectors around the world.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='24148' dateline='1375783647'Die cracks are not all the same, the get bigger and more cracks appear.
Same goes for cuds. Anything which is down to die wear will change with time. But that time extends over many many strikes.
So when you go shopping for say a rabbit ear, you can find them ranging from tiny to huge. But they're all the same error. And if you know that 1984, 1985, etc rabbit ears exist, you can go shopping or searching, secure in the knowledge that you WILL find one.
You cannot say the same about a flaw. That's why I chose to make the distinction. It is completely pointless to include say a 1966 5¢ brockage in your errors list, because there is not going to be more than one. Even if a second or third occurred, they will be completely different.
As I said elsewhere, this is about definitions that aid in collecting, not in describing processes. As collectors we only really care about what we can put into our collections, not how they came about.
And yes, there are crossovers and borderlines. Off-metal strikes for example. Variety? Yes. Error? Yes. Flaw? Well, yes. Not everything is going to fit neatly into a couple of boxes. But most will.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='24149' dateline='1375785186'It is completely pointless to include say a 1966 5¢ brockage in your errors list
You're wrong again there too. Very late state brockages are virtually indistinguishable. So by your logic they are errors and not flaws. No wait, at early stages they are very different. So they are flaws and not errors. Uh.....well it just doesn't work.
You're flogging a dead horse Fulvio. I can assure you that if we ever have a list of definitions on this site that your chosen definition will absolutely not be allowed. It is confusing, it is arbitrary, and it goes completely against the accepted definitions.
Here is the Glossary
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ihartshorn/EVgloss.htm
I'd say I must be of the old school.
VARIETY: Variation of the basic design, varieties come from different dies of the same denomination and year.
eg - wide & narrow date, small and large Obverses, incuse or raised parts of the flag.
ERROR: Generally due to faults in the material (blanks/planchets) or a mishap in the process.
FLAW: Due to die damage or wear.
eg - cracks, cuds, filled dies.
PMD: ??? If a coin is damaged then it is a damaged coin, whether it is from the mint or road kill.
I call a die crack an error
have never called it a flaw
all my albums are titled errors or die variety - inside these albums I have the pages in headings such as, peels, cuds, denticle patterns etc
but nup, I don't have a single coins titled 'flaw'
funnily enough
I just did an ebay search and heaps of coins have 'flaw' in the listings, as well as error/variety
but often these are just used for search engine purposes
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='24151' dateline='1375786216'Here is the Glossary
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ihartshorn/EVgloss.htm
I'd say I must be of the old school.
VARIETY: Variation of the basic design, varieties come from different dies of the same denomination and year.
eg - wide & narrow date, small and large Obverses, incuse or raised parts of the flag.
ERROR: Generally due to faults in the material (blanks/planchets) or a mishap in the process.
FLAW: Due to die damage or wear.
eg - cracks, cuds, filled dies.
PMD: ??? If a coin is damaged then it is a damaged coin, whether it is from the mint or road kill.
Don't agree.
Some proof coins were polished at the mint - I would not call this damage.
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='24151' dateline='1375786216'ERROR: Generally due to faults in the material (blanks/planchets) or a mishap in the process.
FLAW: Due to die damage or wear.
eg - cracks, cuds, filled dies.
See why we needed this discussion Mark? Ian and I have completely opposite viewpoints on those two, and you lump them both together.
There has been confusion for many decades, with people categorising the same thing differently, and arbitrarily. What's wrong with trying to reach some consensus?
Years ago the term misstrikes was common, generally used for off centres and a few others. Brockages and Mules were termed as such.
When is field of coins was expanded upon the term Errors came in, more than likely from the USA. The likes of broadstrikes, partial collars, clipped planchets and dozens more are Errors.
I use misstrike for off centres and I am not entirely sure when an off- centre becomes a broad-strike but I think that I now have one of those
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='24154' dateline='1375786845'There has been confusion for many decades, with people categorising the same thing differently, and arbitrarily. What's wrong with trying to reach some consensus?
I believe a lot of the problems come from forums, not enough established collectors challenging what has been said. When new collectors read some of the posts they just go with the flow.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24156' dateline='1375787229'I use misstrike for off centres and I am not entirely sure when an off- centre becomes a broad-strike but I think that I now have one of those
Very closely related, check broadstrike (uncentered) in the glossary.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24152' dateline='1375786576'I call a die crack an error
have never called it a flaw
all my albums are titled errors or die variety - inside these albums I have the pages in headings such as, peels, cuds, denticle patterns etc
but nup, I don't have a single coins titled 'flaw'
funnily enough
I just did an ebay search and heaps of coins have 'flaw' in the listings, as well as error/variety
but often these are just used for search engine purposes
Keep your albums as they are, the important thing is knowing how they are produced.
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='24153' dateline='1375786844'Don't agree.
Some proof coins were polished at the mint - I would not call this damage.
I'm with you on that one.
I suppose it's technically damage but if it's how the coin was prepared then it I don't think it should a detractor (at least not in the same way as bag-marks for example).
talk about black and white..it's a shame most things are different shades of grey. Billy full of worms here. I'll be in the car :) I think it's like hinnies and mules, if I have a horse and a donkey and they mate you end up with either a mule or a hinny depending on what the male is and they all come under F1-hybrid that covers everything, plants cattle etc. bit like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya8-ZKcOhiY :laugh2:
so if I have multiple error on one coin (it's possible) where does it go..what error takes priority??
I like your idea RG :good:
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='24171' dateline='1375793268'so if I have multiple error on one coin (it's possible) where does it go..what error takes priority??
Excellent question.
I would say Variety first, then errors in order of magnitude, and finally flaws.
So a pointy A 2004 with a cud and a peel would still be a Pointy A first and foremost.
Oh, and I still don't get why we ever started giving bag marks a pass. PMD, IMO, and always will be, even if we ignore them.
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24156' dateline='1375787229'I use misstrike for off centres and I am not entirely sure when an off- centre becomes a broad-strike but I think that I now have one of those
The definition that I adhere to is-
A broadstrike is not missing any design elements or legends. Once you lose some of that you're talking off-centre and can measure in %. These are all errors or mis-strikes.
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='24184' dateline='1375832124'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24156' dateline='1375787229'I use misstrike for off centres and I am not entirely sure when an off- centre becomes a broad-strike but I think that I now have one of those
The definition that I adhere to is-
A broadstrike is not missing any design elements or legends. Once you lose some of that you're talking off-centre and can measure in %. These are all errors or mis-strikes.
I like your definition of the broadstrike.
When compiling the glossary there was some compromise on a few terms, hence the 10% difference between the broadstrike and the off-centre.
The list of terms is more a guide and not to be be taken too rigidly - there will always be grey areas.
The debate about what is an "error" and what is a "variety" naturally came up. The suggestion of a 3rd category "faults/flaws" to the die, was voted down as this would create more confusion. Technically the clipped planchet would not fit into any of the above as they are (now) made outside the mint.
There is one term that I omitted to delete, after compiling the list we found the "nip" under clipped planchets, would virtually be impossible to occur.
Quiz: Which error tells us that the nip virtually can not happen?