Ok, are rim & mistrike errors worth keeping and what one's are..thank you :hi:
Personally those mis-strikes for sale on ebay that are supposedly off centre where you have to squint and look sideways because there may be a very slight misalignment of one of the dies are not worth keeping. If it hasn't affected the collar or metal flow then it doesn't grab me.
Any partial collar, ramstrike, broadstrike, off centre or version of are definately worth keeping. If you've found something noodling then you are luckier than I am most of these are picked up by the security companies before they are rolled/bagged.
:mocking: like these one's (http://i41.tinypic.com/29nilao.jpg)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='23724' dateline='1375487715'like these ones
Maybe its my eyes, but I see nothing making those keepers.
I'm currently putting aside all the rim errors and flaws from these $2 coins.
Out of 29,000 coins so far, I've got a dozen or so rim cuds, a hundred-ish split rims, and an unknown (but small) number of off-centre strikes. They're not sufficiently off-centre for most of you lot, since there is still some rim all the way around, but they are visible to the naked eye, unlike most of them which are fractions of a mm.
I very much doubt you're going to see any major rim flaws in circulation, because as PPH said, most are picked up before you get to them. And the coin collecting community in general tends to be more than a bit snobbish about errors anyway. The whole
"its not worth collecting because its tiny" mentality. To which I say
"you can't get any tinier than an overdate, yet you lust after those, don't you?"At a rate of around 1:300 or less, I consider these types to be collectible. At least as much as common errors which run 1:2 or 1:3 (EG: WW2 50ยข stole cud). However I don't expect there to be much of a market, so I'm only collecting for my own satisfaction, and to try and build a picture of what's possible with these flaws.
For example, where exactly is the dividing line between a rim cud error and a split rim which goes half way around and parts of which are lumpy, like proto-cuds? Did they both result from similar causes? How exactly
are the splits formed anyway?
Lots and lots of questions, making these very interesting, but not a lot of answers as yet.
QuoteLots and lots of questions, making these very interesting, but not a lot of answers as yet.
Don't be so intimidating Mate, unless you work at the mint or have done so in the past then nobody has a definitive answer as to how these errors occur.
Everything otherwise is conjecture or guesswork :ok:
I don't think those are keepers either AJ. Sorry mate. Not enough error to be an error. They're just a very slightly misaligned die likely only on one side.
But again if you found it and you like it then keep it!
Quote from: 'trout' pid='23770' dateline='1375517483'Everything otherwise is conjecture or guesswork
Detective work is half the fun. I'd guess that very, very few of the mistakes mints make have ever been identified by them. Its always collectors, possibly backed up by confirmation from some loose-lipped worker. Most of the staff wouldn't give you the time of day, especially voluntarily.
All good, just trying to work out what to keep and what to set free :) here's some more with odd rims (http://i43.tinypic.com/2yjyb7c.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2j434hw.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2lw0vi8.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2dmcilc.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/20zdzic.jpg)
this rim goes right round
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2md5g21.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2akmste.jpg)
same coin just a cud
(http://i40.tinypic.com/fodsnn.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2qwo3o7.jpg)
sweet found one to keep and eye on and it even has the same cud..so I wonder how many are about :scratch_one-s_head:
help if i put the link up :laugh2: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VERY-RARE-MISS-STRIKE-OFF-CENTER-ERROR-2008-10-CENT-COIN-/251314733623?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a83868237#ht_1591wt_958
I agree with some of the comments above.
purplepennyhunter - But again if you found it and you like it then keep it
Fulvio - Detective work is half the fun
One question to ask yourself is, why keep them? For me they where study pieces, then I spent them, usually in parking meters.
We are talking about coins that are mass produced and it would be rare for a perfect coin to be minted. So most imperfections would be common or normal.
For me, worn dies and/or presses don't make errors they are part of the process.
But in numismatics there are always exceptions to the rule.
Interesting cud on the 2008 10c rev AJ. I've never seen one in that position. :angel:
yes nevol and it's very much like a mule in that it's a full ring..very strange but I think he can go away for now :)
oh sorry, were you talking about the cud in the middle of the 71..just right of the eye (it's what I thought it was for a sec and then seen the real eye..sometimes I look a bit too quick
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='23832' dateline='1375568283'oh sorry, were you talking about the cud in the middle of the 71..just right of the eye (it's what I thought it was for a sec and then seen the real eye..sometimes I look a bit too quick
Yep, that's the one. Quite unusual. :angel: I thought it was on the 2008.
One day I'll get as good as you :thank_you:
I am of the opinion that many so called "coin collectors" call anything nowadays a "variety" because something is oh so slightly different from another coin of the same denomination etc.
Take for eg the bloke on ebay, errorhunter, I think his name is who quite frequently sells coins with 15 or more differences on it. That is a load of you know what.
If something can be seen with the naked eye and it stands out, that's fine, but when a 10x, 20x magnifier is used, one coiuld save every coin one touches.
I believe that if one was able to look at every newly minted coin in one of the RAM's bins, then every coin would be a keeper because ot the minute differences between one coin and another.
Quality control went out the window many years ago at the RAM so more and more "variety coins" are now in circulation. Many so called variety coins have been machine mangled before being found through the many mechanical devices that coins are inserted into. The wear and tear on coins is being ignored and as such, are being called varieties/errors.
I am seriously thinking of giving it all away as I am getting bored with all the so called varieties/errors being reported which when boiled down are normal abuse, wear and tear on the coin.
PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT THE EBAY SELLER I HAVE NAMED IN THIS POST IS NOT THE PERSON WHO HAS THE SAME NAME AS A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM. Edited to try and keep the peace by the author.
Ausjack if the 2008 coin with the ring around it is a 5c IMHO they're quite common
I just look with the naked eye and then if something stands out then I get my lookin glass for a better look and then zoom in with the pic's so the error can be seen better, sorry GS I'm still learning and want to know what are keepers so I don't do like I did before and end up with heaps of nothing so again sorry I didn't meant to up set anyone.
Hey Ausjack, nothing you have said, (posted), has upset me. I was just letting off a little bit of steam.
Everyone is too their own and if one wants to use an atomic microscope to look for varieties/errors, then that is their choice.
Me, use the naked eye, if found, then I use my x2 or x4 microscope for a closer look.
Me thinks that you and I are all on the same level. Good luck.
Mules, rim cuds, out of collar errors, hat cuds are all visible to the naked eye.
I shall have to post some pickies of the errors I have found in my time. I have some already posted throughout the forum under various topics but I should now post under my own topic for those interested.
My problem is with the many errors I have collected, I might run out of space in my "picture posting" limit. I just might have to do a link to my error collection once I have worked out how to do it.
Thanks jozk, it's a 10 cent mate
:laugh2: all good GS I know what that's like :winkextra:
Yeah I agree as it's too much strain on my eyes so mine is a pretty quick scan so I suppose a lot here would like to look thru what I take back as well :) my main one's are wavy 66, incuse and mule and any others are a just bonus..that bloody mule is still eluding me, I'll get him one day :good:
yes your collection is to die for..gee I'd like what the mint has of your let alone what other goodies you'd have :)
.....
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='23847' dateline='1375579517'I am of the opinion that many so called "coin collectors" call anything nowadays a "variety" because something is oh so slightly different from another coin of the same denomination etc.
Take for eg the bloke on ebay, errorhunter,
I am not errorhunter on Ebay, my user name on Ebay is watchtherocks
This is who your thinking of
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Coins-/58520/i.html?item=161078772155&pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item25810b01bb&_ssn=ronnyparker
I was waiting for that :laugh2: best be paying them a visit EH and sort this out if they're gonna keep givin ya a bad name :) I didn't think it was you :winkextra:
Errorhunter ..... I can't see why you single that seller out? I just looked through all their items for sale and think most of it is pretty reasonable (didn't see any jousting sticks though). Sure some of the errors might be common to us, but so be it. 10 x 50c pieces staring at $10 and $2.50 postage, looks reasonable to me.
Check this out ..... if I had a FJ I'd have bought it by now.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713?)
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='23870' dateline='1375591203'Errorhunter ..... I can't see why you single that seller out? I just looked through all their items for sale and think most of it is pretty reasonable (didn't see any jousting sticks though). Sure some of the errors might be common to us, but so be it. 10 x 50c pieces staring at $10 and $2.50 postage, looks reasonable to me.
Check this out ..... if I had a FJ I'd have bought it by now.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713?)
I didn't see anywhere where you've questioned goldseeker to show the identity of the person on Ebay he was "trying" to think of????
No, your happy to go along with him stating my username as an ebay seller selling garbage.
Well errorhunter, that's not too polite .....
Firstly, I know what your ebay username is and I know it's not errorhunter. You might have a short memory, but mine's bl00dy excellent! It was only the other day we were all debating the purple $2 on listed on your ebay account ...... so I knew damn well thanks.
Suggesting we are ganging up on anyone is where I draw the line, hence my comments on your seller ...... are they here to defend themselves ...... don't know, but I stated an observation that I could see nothing wrong there.
Did I defend comments posted where someone who was obviously trying to rip people off (posted last night) ..... no. I supported those comment because I agreed with the conclusion.
Quote from: 'error hunter' pid='23873' dateline='1375593197'Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='23870' dateline='1375591203'Errorhunter ..... I can't see why you single that seller out? I just looked through all their items for sale and think most of it is pretty reasonable (didn't see any jousting sticks though). Sure some of the errors might be common to us, but so be it. 10 x 50c pieces staring at $10 and $2.50 postage, looks reasonable to me.
Check this out ..... if I had a FJ I'd have bought it by now.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161078497713?)
I didn't see anywhere where you've questioned goldseeker to show the identity of the person on Ebay he was "trying" to think of????
No, your happy to go along with him stating my username as an ebay seller selling garbage.
If you have think I have labelled you a poor seller, I apologise. You are not the seller I am talking about. I knew as soon as I posted my comment that someone would take offence at my comment. I should have stated that my naming of the Ebay seller is NOT the error hunter that is a member of this forum.
If you have taken offence at my post, then please accept my apologies.
Quote from: 'error hunter' pid='23862' dateline='1375588932'.....
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='23847' dateline='1375579517'I am of the opinion that many so called "coin collectors" call anything nowadays a "variety" because something is oh so slightly different from another coin of the same denomination etc.
Take for eg the bloke on ebay, errorhunter,
I am not errorhunter on Ebay, my user name on Ebay is watchtherocks
This is who your thinking of
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Coins-/58520/i.html?item=161078772155&pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item25810b01bb&_ssn=ronnyparker
PLEASE SEE MY AMENDED POST THAT SHOULD CLARIFY THE SITUATION.
Would any of these be worth noting as a mistrike.
[attachment=2219]
these are the things I'm trying to find out so sorry I'm no help mate..keep them for now as you can always put them back at a later date but it's a bit hard to get them back from the pond :(
Quote from: 'cracker' pid='23911' dateline='1375619632'Would any of these be worth noting as a mistrike.
Not as far as I can make out, however a few do look to be a tiny bit off centre.
If you already have them, check out the milling for any variance from normal. If you're considering buying them, don't spend too much on them.
An off centre coin would be struck outside the collar die. If there is edge reeding all the way round then it would be a normal struck coin. The variance in the rims is more likely to be a worn collar die and or presses.
Quote from: 'error hunter' pid='23862' dateline='1375588932'I am not errorhunter on Ebay
Yeah, goldy said that, in big red letters even. :)
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='23826' dateline='1375566638'One question to ask yourself is, why keep them?
OK, I know I've had this discussion with various people, with inconclusive results. So here's my take:
First up, for any given coin, there are a finite number made. And from the moment they leave the dies, they start collecting damage. Though long, their lives are limited, and with every passing year there are fewer and fewer examples, and they're in worse shape.
Secondly, you can keep anything many times, but you can only dispose of it once. You can't wish back that mule or 1930 penny you spent back when you were uninformed.
Thirdly, nobody knows the future of this or any other hobby or passtime. Who knew that the country would be overrun with mini property tycoons because of a couple of TV reno shows, and house prices would shoot up 1,000% overnight? The same could easily happen if coin collecting got the right kind of exposure and everyone caught the bug.
So, I keep everything that is interesting. That means any UNC, rare year, variety, error or flaw I come across. I usually draw the line at blowing a fortune buying someone else's finds, though Goldy has this trip to pay for... ;)
So why do I keep these truckloads of coins? Simple. When take something out of circulation, I halt the degeneration of that item. It stops wearing, and whether it was UNC or VF or whatever, it isn't going to get any worse. I even try to remove contaminants that would have destroyed it over time. This I view as simply conservation. Kind of like not knocking down your great-great-grandfather's house, which may or may not have some future historic significance.
Is everything I have valuable? Heck no. But almost all of it worth what I paid for it
(apart from a heap of NCLT from before I wised up). And the cost of ownership is only the lost interest I might have earned had I deposited them somewhere. 5% tops. Its not a fortune, and wouldn't have turned me into a mogul, so who cares? And its still cheaper than golf... ;)
Yes, there are minor errors and flaws. So? I can't even SEE the date on a coin with my fixed-focus Mark II eyeballs, let alone an overdate
(yet people go all stupid over those, don't they?). I have to use magnification (10x loupe) for everything, even reading instruction sheets, so its no biggie. If I see something that shouldn't be there, or is missing, that's the end of that coin's travels.
In my experience, about 5% of any random quantity of coins are keepers. So lets put that into perspective...
A coin, say a 2048 $3 flying kangaroo, has a mintage of four million. There are cuds on King William's chin, forehead, and nose. There are die fills in the date and the K, there are rim cuds on the reverse in two spots, there is a filled R in dollar, and the roo has rabbit ears. Plus it comes to light that there is both a large and small obverse, with pointy or flat A's
So our future coin has two varieties and nine errors. One of the varieties is 10% of the mintage, for 400,000 coins. The errors vary from 1:50 to 1:1000, for 4,000 to 80,000 examples. Fewer for multiple errors. And there are also the usual flaws... ripped planchets, cold shuts, a couple of mistrikes, maybe an off-metal planchet. But since flaws are all unique, they are automatic keepers anyway, and don't enter into this discussion.
So lets say that in total there are 800,000 varieties and errors that are keepers. That's a lot, right? Well, no. Because there are only 4,000 possible complete sets of errors, and any serious collector is going to want all of them. In the best possible grade. And the earlier you pull them out of circulation, the better they're going to be.
Suppose that some time in the intervening years some genius at the RAM comes up with a non-idiotic way to promote the hobby, and it takes off. The collector population expands to three million people, 10% of the population. Of these, 20% get into errors. That's 600,000 people chasing our 400,000 varieties and 80,000 or fewer errors.
Do you want to be the guy who threw back all those UNC nose cuds because they weren't huge, only to later find there are only 4,000 in existence? How many mules got tossed back in their first 4 years in circulation before people recognised their value? Or 1930 pennies, for that matter.
Like I said up there, you can only throw something away once. So I'll very happily sit on everything until I'm absolutely certain I no longer want to hang onto it, or I need the cash.
Oh, and just in case you think this is all a bit whimsical, here's a little assignment for you. Dig out your federation state coins and a magnifier and see how many different errors you can find. And this is on coins with around 2 million mintage.
took the words right out of my mouth fulvio..well put mate :)
AJ ..... I'm not gunna finish that song sentence for ya .....
Well put Fulvio, totally agree. I only cull my keepers because I can't afford to keep them all.
:laugh2: why not sweetheart..ok I will http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wO8toxinoc
..big kisses for uni ya know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tuYKUgBZEc :give_heart:
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='23973' dateline='1375688880'I only cull my keepers because I can't afford to keep them all.
Yeah, that sucks, but is completely understandable. I gotta admit this $2 chase has put a few dings in my other resources. Be glad when its over and I can rebuild.
Thanks Nevol and Cobwebs off centre is what they are. I couldn't think what they were if they weren't mistrikes. I just have a small bag of off centre 10cents coins that I have had for a while and needed a second opinion.
What anyone collects and keeps is up to them.
There are 2 schools of thought that have different opinions of what constitutes a variety.
A coin, say a 2048 $3 flying kangaroo, has a mintage of four million. There are cuds on King William's chin, forehead, and nose. There are die fills in the date and the K, there are rim cuds on the reverse in two spots, there is a filled R in dollar, and the roo has rabbit ears. Plus it comes to light that there is both a large and small obverse, with pointy or flat A's
So our future coin has two varieties and nine errors.
Fulvio
I disagree with some of your opinions (someone has to challenge you).
But first could you give a few examples of Errors, Varieties and Flaws. The terminology seems to have changed over the last 5-6 years.
Maybe a new thread - This subject has been debated several times over the past 20 years or so. New collectors to this area of collecting would be after good info and see the various opinions that crop up.
As I have said, the terminology appears to have changed again.
wow, yeah being sort of new to errors I'd have to agree, what is what?? This is hard for me but I hope you get what I'm trying to say, I have gained a bit from different threads but it seem like a lot of other things to do with coins and all pretty subjective. I'll have a shot and say error should be the broad title as there are two sorts, one in the dies that lead to a variety etc and one in the metal or some other force that create flaws eg split planchet. So as you can have a flaw in either the coin or die it's a bit hard and depends on how much you want to split hairs and then things can get broken down into varieties etc and they can be split and so on and so on..very interesting, well I think so :)
Hi ausjack.
I do have a copy of an error/variety glossary of terms for Aussie coins. I'll put it up on the web, it may take a week or two. It doesn't define what is an error, variety or flaw but it's a starting point.
Cool, thanks mate..it all helps and we're always learning :good:
very interesting and hard to explain so I hope you could see where I was going :)
Just thinking, with all these new coins and the way they're making them I wonder what will be the next type of error..one process missed and who know what could happen, eg paint not taking, is this an error and an error with the coin or just the way it was made so there's a lot to think about. I think the main problem with us or/ that we face is that we have old rules but it's a new type of game and we all have a lot to learn and work out what is what or the future is gonna be a real shitefight..another eg is grading and the different systems and even different companies make up their own system so yeah fun for us all but more food for thought.
Maybe, "old rules but it's a new type of game".
Basically the rules still apply. Very little has changed to the way coins are made, we still have 2 dies and a blank and whether it's a hammer or machine that force the dies onto the blank we still get errors and varieties. I'd say the main difference is, quality has improved. Some where in my collection I have a "flipped over double strike" from the 13th century. I'll see if I can dig it out and post an image.
With new types of errors, it a matter of finding an appropriate name and description.
how could you have a flipped over double strike from the 13th century?
what sort of a press would that have been made in?
Quote from: 'Cobwebs' pid='24099' dateline='1375761894'I disagree with some of your opinions (someone has to challenge you).
But first could you give a few examples of Errors, Varieties and Flaws.
Good. Its only through discussion that a consensus can be reached.
I did in another thread fairly recently, but I'll start a new one so it can be easily found.
"Paint flake" from what I hear about these new $2 could be a new one :) and I did see an error on ebay, here's a link, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2013-2-60th-Coronation-purple-coin-ERROR-COIN-/111128099962?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item19dfc03c7a#ht_245wt_988 sorry EH no offence intended mate as I seen this the other day and only just seen it was you..sorry.
I should call in and see you next time I'm up that way, I think your the closest member to me :)
Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='24135' dateline='1375780206'"Paint flake" from what I hear about these new $2 could be a new one :) and I did see an error on ebay, here's a link, http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2013-2-60th-Coronation-purple-coin-ERROR-COIN-/111128099962?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item19dfc03c7a#ht_245wt_988 sorry EH no offence intended mate as I seen this the other day and only just seen it was you..sorry.
I should call in and see you next time I'm up that way, I think your the closest member to me :)
Anyone who is on the gold coast is welcome to come and have a look at the coin. I have thought about ringing the mint to see what they think?
The ppl that removed the paint with acetone removed the paint, I'd be interested in seeing if they can change its colour??
I don't know how the coin is made when it comes to painting, but maybe it missed a process or got the same process twice??
Anyone know what the printing process is for these coloured coins??
Cool, I'll call in and see you next time I'm up that way :good: now to these coins, I'm not sure but i think Mark said they are like inkjeted on so if it's anything like my printer I'd say you got one of the last one's before it ran out of ink..could very well be wrong but it's a just thought :)
i think that we have been
over
and
over
this part before
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24207' dateline='1375869024'i think that we have been
over
and
over
this part before
I think your wrong, no one has made any commentary on how these coins are made or what the process is in getting the ink on the coin???
eh it would be the same as the Perth Mint process, probably used the same machines just calibrated differently, cos I don't see the Royal Australian Mint spending money on a new machine for a 1 time thing on a item like this.
the process look like it was done on a partially frosted centre on the $2 coin, then the machine does the pad printing process on the surface, someone added the link to the PM youtube pad printing process before go and have a look it shows the process
not quite so true
there was heaps posted about the process
in another thread i think
i recall asking Mark for the condensed version!
he posted a link to the Canadian process anyways
i might remember the thread ... it's somewhere around here
anyways, just call the ram and ask for the production dept. tell the bloke there about your coin
they may ask that you send it in for them to go over
they have a fairly new production manager and he is pretty keen to do the job well
heres a link but there are better example will have a looksee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qUyFUumqLPc
heres a more simpler one for US circulation type, quick and easy, it would only need one stamp as only one layer of colour is being applied to the surface https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kIRizqq6ug unsure what paint or enamel would be used but it is still interesting
got a few spare MB go and have a looksee at the colourful change website entry's peeps, my favourite is the black and white to colour clip, makes you smile, good job peeps who have entered http://colourfulchange.com.au/entries/view/42
I only seen two, don't bother with the bottom one from the RAM kinda pointless, but they started the ball rolling with clip entry's
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='24126' dateline='1375777925'how could you have a flipped over double strike from the 13th century?
what sort of a press would that have been made in?
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11119/ed1flip.jpg)
No presses in those days, the anvil die was set into a block, then a blank placed on it. The hammer die sat on the blank then hit with a hammer.
(http://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11119/Edward_11_farthing.jpg)
What the coin generally looks like, the obverse on this one doesn't have the inner circle of beads.
thanks for the pics
English pennies?
Quote from: 'Enlilninlil' pid='24302' dateline='1375949989'English pennies?
English farthings, Edward 1 (1272-1307) Longshanks
Got one in MS70?
LOL... sorry, I just had to. :diablo:
Very cool coins BTW.