Take a look at this listing, the grade is BS and who the hell is Dominion Grading Company.
The listing is by bobby131313 and I think this is the founder of CCf's eBay id . I sincerely hope I am wrong with this because I have spent a few years on his site and if this is true then to me the whole site is crap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Australia-Coin-1915-Silver-Threepence-3-pence-3d-Choice-VF-Detail-Low-Mintage-/370841000525?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5657d89a4d
I have questioned Bobby about this on CCF, wonder how long it takes me to get put in the naughty corner for a month ?
http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/dominion-grading-service-explained/
"We're NOT a major third party grading service and we aren't trying to be. DGS is the in-house grading service for DLRC and we invite submissions from collectors, as well. Typically, we grade (in house) those coins that are circulated, or light clean mint state,etc that we feel PCGS and NGC don't give enough credence to. Or coins in which we see no advantage to PCGS or NGC holders."
http://www.coinlink.com/News/general-collecting/dominion-grading-service-dgs-to-discontinue-slabbing/
"As for DGS, we simply do not feel that there is enough demand for collector coins at this time to merit our further investment. We have discontinued grading at DGS at this time. If you have DGS-graded coins to sell, please offer them to us for sale. We remain committed to the quality and standards of our grading at DGS and we still make two-way markets in DGS-graded coins."
I have NO idea what you are saying Fulvio Mate But.
Sounds like Bobby has already started a US APCGS , Bloody idiot.
I find it hard to believe that he could stoop so low as to overgrade coins ,slab them and use the good name he has developed on CCF to sell crap :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22557' dateline='1374497413'I have NO idea what you are saying Fulvio Mate But.
Did you follow the links?
"About John Feigenbaum
As president of David Lawrence Rare Coins, John Feigenbaum has over 32 years of professional numismatic experience. John's began collecting coins as early as age 5 when he started attending coin shows and club meetings with his father in southern Florida. He has also written, The Complete Guide to Washington Quarters (1993) & co-authored The Complete Guide to Certified Barber Coinage (1994). A graduate of Virginia Tech, John took over the reins at DLRC in 1996 when his father, Dave, was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's Disease. Today, technology is a focal point in growth of DLRC and John spends most of his time with IT development as he leads DLRC and other partnerships in the development of coin-related web sites and mobile applications."Unless Bobby is John, he's just a customer of DGS, or bought a coin from someone who was. DGS is no longer operating, and hasn't been for years.
So what exactly are you all worked up about?
Dominion Grading Service was the outfit which bought out PCI when that company went bust back in 2008, if I recall. PCI was one of the few "second-tier" grading services - not as widely respected as the Big Three, but not basement slabbers either. I'm not sure if DGS lasted long enough for it to acquire any particular reputation, but it didn't last long; their Google-fossilized homepage says they stopped accepting coins for grading in 2010. They simply couldn't fight eBay's refusal to recognize them as a legitimate TPG.
Do a forum search over on CCF for either DGS or the full name and you'll find plenty of threads about them.
As for their opinion on this coin, well, it is what it is. I know it wouldn't grade that high here in Australia, and I know a top TPG wouldn't assign a grade due to the cleaning. But a coin graded VG-8 in America wouldn't have this much detail surviving; I've seen coins given a VG grade by the top-tier TPGs which I personally wouldn't assign much above "Poor".
QuoteSo what exactly are you all worked up about?
when I read that listing I felt like I had been kicked in the guts by my best friend .
I hold Bobby and Susan in the highest regard and am horrified that they could list such crap.
Subtlety is a gift a never received and when I see something wrong I will always speak up :ok:
What's the problem? You could probably get that into a PCGS or NGC VF30.
Don't judge the entire coin by the band of the crown.
QuoteI hope this isn't Bobby from CCF
Sorry to say but it definitely is Bobby from CCF.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22566' dateline='1374532781'What's the problem? You could probably get that into a PCGS or NGC VF30.
Don't judge the entire coin by the band of the crown.
I sincerely doubt that Walter.
I put it to you that this well and truly scrubbed coin would come back in a "Details" slab Ungraded :ok:
What is upsetting is after all the bagging over the years regarding Basement slobbers and when Bobby puts one up it is considered "Kosher", give me a break a spade is a spade regardless of who is holding it.
Well, everyone else is wading into this discussion, so I might as well.
Credit to him, he does mentioned that the coin has been cleaned.
However, to grade the coin VF is a bit of a porky. Perhaps US coins are graded differently than AUS coins, although I had always been under the assumption that the F/VF/EF/UNC grades were universal.
If that is VF, then I need to go back and regrade all my pre-decs.
Certainly does seem strange coming from such a renowned person.! Will be interested to see if he replies to Trouts protestations.!! :dodgy:
Quote from: 'coxspau' pid='22569' dateline='1374534722'Well, everyone else is wading into this discussion, so I might as well.
Credit to him, he does mentioned that the coin has been cleaned.
However, to grade the coin VF is a bit of a porky. Perhaps US coins are graded differently than AUS coins, although I had always been under the assumption that the F/VF/EF/UNC grades were universal.
If that is VF, then I need to go back and regrade all my pre-decs.
The US standard is different, a VF30 by definition equates to a good Fine in Australia.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22568' dateline='1374534169'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22566' dateline='1374532781'What's the problem? You could probably get that into a PCGS or NGC VF30.
Don't judge the entire coin by the band of the crown.
I sincerely doubt that Walter.
I put it to you that this well and truly scrubbed coin would come back in a "Details" slab Ungraded :ok:
What is upsetting is after all the bagging over the years regarding Basement slobbers and when Bobby puts one up it is considered "Kosher", give me a break a spade is a spade regardless of who is holding it.
It's not about who puts it up, it's about whether it's accurately graded or not. It doesn't look well and truly scrubbed to me. It probably has light hairlines on the surface which resulted in the designation, the top tier grading services only no grade for cleaning if the damage caused by the cleaning is significantly more than such a coin would normally expect to receive from circulation for the given grading. At the VF30 level the coin is going to be covered in hairlines anyway so unless the hairlines are particular harsh (in which case they'd show up in the photos), the top tier TPGs will still grade it.
I defer to your better judgment and knowledge Walter.
So why is this still in the basement slab when PCGS/NGC could slab it ?
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22574' dateline='1374535628'I defer to your better judgment and knowledge Walter.
So why is this still in the basement slab when PCGS/NGC could slab it ?
This coin isn't likely to realise a higher value in a PCGS/NGC slab than it is raw. Circulated Australian coins are usually graded accurately enough already so PCGS has never been popular among collectors of these.
I think you were a bit harsh mate. As i said in the CCF thread and walter has now backed up its not the worst graded coin ever. At that price its not completely unreasonable. I sell absolutely shocking examples with mostly missing legends for $15-20. $60 isnt that much to get a coin with a nicely detailed reverse and full obverse legends.
Quote from: 'coxspau' pid='22569' dateline='1374534722'Well, everyone else is wading into this discussion, so I might as well.
Credit to him, he does mentioned that the coin has been cleaned.
However, to grade the coin VF is a bit of a porky. Perhaps US coins are graded differently than AUS coins, although I had always been under the assumption that the F/VF/EF/UNC grades were universal.
If that is VF, then I need to go back and regrade all my pre-decs.
*sigh* Look at the number not the letter. VF30 would usually be equivalent to fine in Australian adjectival terms. Perhaps a little less perhaps a little more.
Perhaps my grading terms are little off, but would this coin grade in Australian standards as Fine?
I would have thought VG.
My grading skills still need to be improved so this is somewhat of an learning.
This date is often very weakly struck, especially on the obverse. I would be hapoy to call it fine.
Quote from: 'enworb' pid='22583' dateline='1374537456'I think you were a bit harsh mate. As i said in the CCF thread and walter has now backed up its not the worst graded coin ever. At that price its not completely unreasonable. I sell absolutely shocking examples with mostly missing legends for $15-20. $60 isnt that much to get a coin with a nicely detailed reverse and full obverse legends.
I intended to be harsh, It's not about the coin per se It's about the fact that everyone and that includes Me you and even my neighbours dog has consistently bagged and vilified basement slabbers.
To see such respected people selling this type of garbage is quite upsetting .
If the coin had been cracked out and sold raw at that price , Then I wouldn't have a problem :ok:
But to list it in all its glory in that BS slab just seems wrong and is like they are promoting them.
If anyone else did this you would be all over them, But because Bobby does it you are fine with it.
Like I have said on many an occasion "I am NOT a diplomat" and if calling a spade a spade is being harsh then "So be it"
Quote from: 'coxspau' pid='22587' dateline='1374538315'Perhaps my grading terms are little off, but would this coin grade in Australian standards as Fine?
I would have thought VG.
My grading skills still need to be improved so this is somewhat of an learning.
Given that the date is usually weakly struck I wouldn't be surprised to see it graded as Fine by most dealers. Personally I'd put it at aF. There's a bit too much meat on the obverse (and certainly the reverse) to consign to the VG realms.
That being said I wouldn't call anyone a rubbish grader if they called that coin VG. Perhaps a tad conservative.
I would say it an optimistic fine but no better.The obverse definately has a weaker
strike and I wouldn't want to pay any more than about $40 for it
Regardless of what is said in this topic, the three I have in my collection were all found with a metal detector during my detecting days. One of mine is a lot worse that the one pictured but the other two are quite reasonable.
I would be very happy to see mine fetch $45.00-$50.00 each if I was to sell them.
I see two separate issues here.
On the question of the coin's grade, it is what it is, and at the end of the day any grader's opinion is just that, an opinion. If you have it in your hand, you can make up your own mind. If you don't, you an either judge by the pics and description, or blindly accept a third party grade. The consensus seems to be its been fairly described.
The other question is whether the Gospel according to PCGS is the one true Word, and all others are blasphemers. "Basement Slabbers"??? WTF? A company goes into a business in competition with others in the field. They have no greater or lesser right than anyone else to do so. If they offer an inferior service, they will fail. If not, they will succeed. Why attack them, and the owner of one of their products, just because they aren't the top dog?
By that reasoning, we'd all be driving Holdens, we'd all be shopping at Coles, banking with CBA, eating at McDonalds, etc etc etc.
Its a diverse world. There are going to be multiple competing providers for any service. If you don't like a particular provider, fine, move along. But don't just blindly attack, it's demeaning.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22622' dateline='1374552639'The other question is whether the Gospel according to PCGS is the one true Word, and all others are blasphemers. "Basement Slabbers"??? WTF? A company goes into a business in competition with others in the field. They have no greater or lesser right than anyone else to do so. If they offer an inferior service, they will fail. If not, they will succeed. Why attack them, and the owner of one of their products, just because they aren't the top dog?
There are three kinds of American "slabbing companies". The so-called "top tier" are the widely recognized ones [sarcasm] we all know and love [/sarcasm]. They have market dominance, eBay's seal of approval and are remarkably consistent with each other, given the vagaries of the artform which we call coin grading. PCGS, NGC, ANACS.
At the bottom are the "basement slabbers"; they are called this to conjure up the image of somebody sitting in the basement, slabbing up their own coins. These people are basically conmen, taking their own coins, wrapping them in a veneer that looks like a neutral third-party opinion and hoping to trick people into believing their overgraded coins ought to fetch the same prices a "top tier" coin should fetch.
In between are those rarest of creatures, the "second-tier" or "wannabee" TPGs. These are companies that genuinely and sincerely are doing what Fulvio indicates: trying to provide realistic and genuine third-party opinions on coins they do not own, but are submitted to them. In comparison to the "basement" group, the second-tier list is very small indeed; you've got ICG (which has eBay approval, so it's really at 1½ tiers), SEGS and that's about it in America; you can probably include the two Canadian ones and British CGS here as well given their limited recognition outside of their home markets. But PCI/DGS was once a member of this tiny group.
And in case it isn't perfectly obvious by now, the answer is no. Bobby of CCF is not, and never has been, affiliated in any way with DGS. As I said above, DGS does not even exist anymore, so "promoting" them would be futile. Frankly, trout, I think you owe them an apology for jumping to such a hasty conclusion.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22574' dateline='1374535628'So why is this still in the basement slab when PCGS/NGC could slab it ?
If there's one thing I can't stand about the entire theory behind slabs, it is this very attitude that creeps into slab-only collectors who encounter raw yet desirable coins: "If your coin is so good, how come it isn't already in a slab?". Hello?!? Not everyone believes in instant slabbification. The simple and obvious answer is, nobody's gotten around to it yet.
In the case of this particular coin, the reason why nobody's gotten around to it yet is also obvious: in the sorry condition that it is in, a PCGS/NGC wrapper isn't going to increase its value by much. Unless you've got some free submission vouchers you need using up, there's no ROI; you simply aren't going to get your money back. The DGS slab is good enough.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22622' dateline='1374552639'By that reasoning, we'd all be driving Holdens, we'd all be shopping at Coles, banking with CBA, eating at McDonalds, etc etc etc.
OK, how do you know so much about me? Where are your spy cameras??!?? :dodgy:
I think Fulvio is over-simplifying the case. I drive a Holden but my wife drives a Ford. We shop at Woolworths or IGA and never (repeat NEVER) eat at the golden arches. Very occasionally have Kentucky Fried Chicken (for the younger generation that is what "KFC" stand for) and sometimes a pizza (but not the place with the faux Swiss chalet style roof. More likely to go for Indian or Thai for out of home food.
And we are both "grannies" [if that can be used for both sexes].
I am a Holden girl but drive a Toyota or a Mazda. I shop wherever the specials are but I don't want tickets to One Direction. I bank wherever they don't charge me any fees (doing the ING wave'n'save right now -they credit you back 5% the same day!). I refuse to eat at the Golden Arches unless I am away from home then at least I know what I'm getting and that's a pain in the guts. I am not a Grannie yet nor will I be any time this decade.
Sorry this has gone way off topic.
Quote from: 'Sapyx' pid='22631' dateline='1374562493'OK, how do you know so much about me? Where are your spy cameras??!?? :dodgy:
Everywhere, of course...
"Hello, I'm from the Government. I'm here to help you." :mafia:
Seriously though, its never good to jump to conclusions, as my sweeping generalisations and the last couple of comments show.
If it helps Fulvio. Our town does not have a Coles supermarket.
To drag it even further off topic:
Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='22640' dateline='1374566492'...Very occasionally have Kentucky Fried Chicken (for the younger generation that is what "KFC" stand for)...
Actually, just like ANACS (one of the American TPGs) no longer stands for "American Numismatic Association Certification Service" since it was sold off, "KFC" doesn't officially stand for anything anymore. The government of the State of Kentucky trademarked the word "Kentucky" in 1990 in an effort to extract some much-needed licensing dollars from its most famous users (KFC and the Kentucky Derby). But all that happened was the Colonel and the Derby simply changed their names. Snopes page (http://www.snopes.com/lost/kfc.asp).
Sap Wrote
And in case it isn't perfectly obvious by now, the answer is no. Bobby of CCF is not, and never has been, affiliated in any way with DGS. As I said above, DGS does not even exist anymore, so "promoting" them would be futile. Frankly, trout, I think you owe them an apology for jumping to such a hasty conclusion.
Given all the facts i have to agree with Sap on this one sorry Trout.
QuoteFrankly, trout, I think you owe them an apology for jumping to such a hasty conclusion.
The perception in the US and Canada is if the coin is in a slab (any slab) then it is more valuable than a "Raw" coin of the same grade.
Bobby and Susan are well aware of this phenomenon (BTW susan listed this coin) and I feel that they used this to sell an otherwise quite ordinary coin.
After all the discussion on CCF about "Basement Slabbers" you would think that this coin would have been cracked and sold raw.
With the influence they have with US and Canadian collectors you would think that a bit more thought would have gone into the listing.
Why would I apologise for giving someone a "Wake Up call", Just my opinion and quite frankly I am entitled to it .
As for us all driving Holden's and eating Maccas :angel:
I have always said we need an Australian grading mob but nobody wants to touch that hot potato.
Probably because it would only be any good within Australia for Australian coins and the market isn't big enough to make that worthwhile commercially.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22655' dateline='1374571004'...Just my opinion and quite frankly I am entitled to it...
True. Also true that others seem to have an opposing view.
But look at it this way mate... If I bought that coin, and some time later decided to sell it, why should I be forced to jailbreak it? Why should the owner's identity or standing in any way alter that? I know
*some* people can't stand to see anything not be in a 2x2, but a protective case with a descriptive label,
which someone paid to acquire, is not a bad thing. OK, so its not a top tier grader. So what? Anyone with any doubt can certainly look 'em up, just like I did. And they can probably still look up that coin, assuming the database hasn't been taken down.
There's absolutely nothing shonky going on in this particular molehill.
QuoteTrue. Also true that others seem to have an opposing view.
:agreed:
Isn't that what makes us so diverse and not all drive Holden's :wavemulticolor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdGtwVaa6g
I emailed Susan earlier today and received a reply that we are still mates, Even after I did offer to fall on my sword :yahoo:
The listing HAS been removed and I do give Susan and Bobby full kudos for that.
All's well that ends well as far as I am concerned:wavemulticolor:
The real upside is that it made you buggers think and post your ideas and opinions , ALL is good :yahoo:
Quote from: 'Sapyx' pid='22631' dateline='1374562493'If there's one thing I can't stand about the entire theory behind slabs, it is this very attitude that creeps into slab-only collectors who encounter raw yet desirable coins: "If your coin is so good, how come it isn't already in a slab?". Hello?!? Not everyone believes in instant slabbification. The simple and obvious answer is, nobody's gotten around to it yet
There is merit to that line of thought, quality pre-decimal coins sell for higher in slabs, sliders and problem coins sell higher raw. As there is a profit to be made, quality coins are going to end up in slabs and problem coins and sliders are going to end up raw. Not everyone may believe in slabs but at the end of the day greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22723' dateline='1374633772'...greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.
True, but not from
me they're not. The greedy can only win if we allow them to. Every time we pay more for a slabbed coin because its slabbed, we make matters worse, and the greed gets worse.
Its like that ad on the radio at the moment...
"All our cows are strict vegetarians. Unfortunately (for them), they're also delicious". Surely its obvious that being delicious is not in your best interests if you're the cow?
Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in
our best interests.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22732' dateline='1374648632'Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22723' dateline='1374633772'...greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.
True, but not from me they're not. The greedy can only win if we allow them to. Every time we pay more for a slabbed coin because its slabbed, we make matters worse, and the greed gets worse.
Its like that ad on the radio at the moment... "All our cows are strict vegetarians. Unfortunately (for them), they're also delicious". Surely its obvious that being delicious is not in your best interests if you're the cow?
Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in our best interests.
You are preaching to the converted with me Mate :ok:
I have never been over the moon about value adding due to plastic.
However I am getting a coin graded by PCGS simply because I can and out of idle curiosity.
I do own a couple of coins still in their slabs, Not because I like them that way but because they were a gift and I promised not to crack them out.
The only real benefit I can see with having a coin slabbed is authentication, a bit like getting a C.O.A With a coin.
Other than that gimme them Raw any day:wavemulticolor:
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22732' dateline='1374648632'Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in our best interests.
What about the extra profit on dealers make on raw coins? My point was that if a coin offered by a dealer isn't in a slab, it's because it wouldn't be profitable to slab it. So by buying raw coins you're paying a premium over the slabbed value.
The difference is that the premium earned by slabbed coins is because their condition is validated by a third party, while the premium earned by raw coins is because the buyer is unaware that the coin either has a problem that would result in a no-grade or it's simply overgraded.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22774' dateline='1374672852'...coin either has a problem that would result in a no-grade or it's simply overgraded.
Sorry, maybe I'm having a blonde moment, but I'm simply not following.
How did we reach a point where any coin not slabbed automatically
must be dodgy? That's a bit like saying any beachgoer not covered neck-to-knee
must be immoral. :dodgy:
Lets take a hypothetical...
Coin X catalogues at $100 UNC. Dealer A has three, all UNC, at varying prices around that mark. I look at them, and decide I love the look of one of them, and happily pay his asking price, or haggle for a better deal. So far, so good. He probably paid half what I gave him, and everyone's happy.
Dealer B also has three, all slabbed, in various MS grades. All are much more expensive, simply because they're slabbed. There's the grading fee, the auction results for the same grade setting a baseline, and a certain "snob" value conferred by the slab itself. He knows he can get those prices from "investors", and won't budge. So either I cough up the extra, or go without.
How exactly am I better off? PCGS obviously is. The dealer almost certainly is, at least for now. But how do I, as a collector, gain anything at all from the slabbing of Dealer B's coins? And what happens when Dealer A follows suit and slabs all his as well?
Its only a matter of time before there is no market for raw coins. And that I would argue harms collectors
and the hobby.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22779' dateline='1374676574'How did we reach a point where any coin not slabbed automatically must be dodgy? That's a bit like saying any beachgoer not covered neck-to-knee must be immoral. :dodgy:
That comes from my point before, because if it was a quality coin it would be worth more slabbed so someone would've slabbed it already. This can easily be seen in practice, visit any dealer, try and find a problem-free, accurately graded pre-decimal coin over $100 - there aren't many left.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22779' dateline='1374676574'Coin X catalogues at $100 UNC. Dealer A has three, all UNC, at varying prices around that mark. I look at them, and decide I love the look of one of them, and happily pay his asking price, or haggle for a better deal. So far, so good. He probably paid half what I gave him, and everyone's happy.
Dealer B also has three, all slabbed, in various MS grades. All are much more expensive, simply because they're slabbed. There's the grading fee, the auction results for the same grade setting a baseline, and a certain "snob" value conferred by the slab itself. He knows he can get those prices from "investors", and won't budge. So either I cough up the extra, or go without.
Prices aren't inherently higher for slabbed coins - if they were nobody would buy them. The prices go up with the quality, say it was a 1936 threepence - they go for about $100 in UNC. Say the three slabbed coins were MS62, MS63 and MS64, they'd sell for $70, $130 and $190 respectively. You still have the opportunity to source an UNC example for under $100.
Now consider the cost of slabbing is $45 and the coin has a wholesale value of $30 in UNC, it would be profitable to slab any example that would grade at MS63 or above, so your first dealers' UNC examples would at best be MS62.
So you have the choice of buying a PCGS MS62 for $70 which the dealer won't budge on, or buying a raw UNC (which if you're lucky makes MS62) priced at $100 which you need to negotiate down to $70.
Then we're doomed. What we've effectively done is put a $45 tax on every coin worth having. :(
And even worse, its a tax paid to a foreign company.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='22781' dateline='1374688460'Then we're doomed. What we've effectively done is put a $45 tax on every coin worth having. :(
And even worse, its a tax paid to a foreign company.
Fulvio you may see it as a tax , i see it as a form of insurance ,that i haven't been hookwinked by the raw coin dealers ,and when i kick the bucket ,there will be less chance my relatives won't get hookwinked again by a dealer when they go to resell as the grade is now set .
By the way Australia Post does alright out of sending coins off to the TPG , i think they are still a Australian company lol :D
Each to their own ,i say
This "Slabbing" debate has been going on for years now and not just in this country.
Just because a coin isn't in a slab doesn't automatically equate to being a problem coin or inferior in some way, ALL coins are "Raw" to start with (They don't come out of the Mint in slabs)
Most slabbed coins ARE good quality coins because nobody in their right mind would spend the $30-$40 slabbing/postage fees to get a crap coin graded.
A slabbed coin will 99.99% of the time outperform a raw coin of the same quality in a sale, I have sold 2 coins both the same grade one was slabbed the other was raw and the slabbed coin went for over 100% more than the raw coin.
It all boils down to "Buy the coin not the slab".
If you are happy paying X amount of dollars for a coin in a slab then no problem, But If you feel the coin is overpriced because of the slabbing fee then simply don't buy it (Vote with your feet).
I personally prefer Raw coins because I can examine them in detail (Including weighing them) without having to look at them through quite often badly scratched plastic.
My main concern with slabbed coins is they are graded "Sheldon" and this can be confusing to older and newer collectors used to the ANDA type grades.
No matter which side of the room you are on with this debate, One thing is for certain.
The debate WILL continue :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22785' dateline='1374707179'A slabbed coin will 99.99% of the time outperform a raw coin of the same quality in a sale, I have sold 2 coins both the same grade one was slabbed the other was raw and the slabbed coin went for over 100% more than the raw coin.
Yes but this isn't because of some 'slab premium', it is because people only slab coins which will sell for more in slabs. I could just as easily say a raw coin would 99.99% of the time sell higher raw than if it were slabbed. E.g. A while back I linked a 1926 florin graded UNC Details (Cleaned) that sold at auction for $150 which later appeared raw in an Aussie auction graded uncirculated realising $1165. Then there was that GEM 1924 florin that came back UNC Details (Cleaned) that appeared in a recent thread.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22785' dateline='1374707179'It all boils down to "Buy the coin not the slab".
Yes, you'll find that the main reason many of the more experienced collectors are switching over to slabs isn't because they love the plastic, but rather because it's the only way to source quality coins in today's market.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22785' dateline='1374707179'If you are happy paying X amount of dollars for a coin in a slab then no problem, But If you feel the coin is overpriced because of the slabbing fee then simply don't buy it (Vote with your feet).
The slabbing fee only affects the price of coins which aren't popular to slab yet. Once a sufficient quantity of a coin exists in slabs, nobody will pay a premium on the lower grade coins just because they're in a slab. I make it a specific part of my business getting lower grade coins slabbed and selling them at a loss because it gets collectors started. Very few collectors would start collecting slabs if the minimum price per coin is $50.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22785' dateline='1374707179'I personally prefer Raw coins because I can examine them in detail (Including weighing them) without having to look at them through quite often badly scratched plastic.
My main concern with slabbed coins is they are graded "Sheldon" and this can be confusing to older and newer collectors used to the ANDA type grades.
I don't think that's a problem anymore. Most older collectors would already know how to grade so they won't be fooled by such and most newer collectors use the Blue Sheet so pricing is already in the Sheldon system.
There must be a hefty discount for bulk slabbing or something.
Arheacoins have been listing slabbed decimals some of which are buy it now $15 for PCGS slabs?
Quote from: 'Unicorn' pid='22816' dateline='1374721018'There must be a hefty discount for bulk slabbing or something.
Arheacoins have been listing slabbed decimals some of which are buy it now $15 for PCGS slabs?
Post-65 coins are cheaper but they still end up at around $30/coin depending on the quantity you send (including shipping, insurance, etc). The minimum rate is $20.92 ($16 + $1.40 shipping + 10% GST /AUD) so the more coins you send over, the more the cost approaches that price.
The thing is with decimals is they're much easier to send by the set. You get some PR67DCs, some PR68DCs and some PR69DCs. PR69s you can likely sell for a profit, PR67-68s you won't get your slabbing fee back for. If you get a PR70DC you get a huge profit though these are very rare.
Dealers have to sell PR67s and PR68s at a loss, there's no point asking $35 for them because nobody will buy them.
Thanks for that pricing info Walter, greatly appreciated.
I just changed the name of this thread to reflect its content :ok:
i have both raw and slabbed
either way if the coin is good enough i will buy it
but sooner or later i will get the better ones slabbed when i finish admiring them in their raw state such as my stunning 1966 half/penny - i reckon 66/67RD so my 'grandies' (none yet) can do what they like with them.
meanwhile am trying to control the buy buy disease
:good::dance2:
Quotemeanwhile am trying to control the buy buy disease
Good luck with that Mate :angel:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22826' dateline='1374729904'Quotemeanwhile am trying to control the buy buy disease
Good luck with that Mate :angel:
Yeah I know the feeling
Quote from: 'duggee27' pid='22824' dateline='1374728978'i have both raw and slabbed
either way if the coin is good enough i will buy it
but sooner or later i will get the better ones slabbed when i finish admiring them in their raw state such as my stunning 1966 half/penny - i reckon 66/67RD so my 'grandies' (none yet) can do what they like with them.
meanwhile am trying to control the buy buy disease
:good::dance2:
1966 halfpenny? ..........
lemme see it buster!! ha ha
Probably English.
ooops
silly me
would still like to see it
the English coins are beautiful
I have a glorious 1964 English penny
Whilst I buy most of my coins in slabs, I normally buy at auction and pay around the price I would expect to pay for a raw coin.
On top of this, Eric always has excellent pricing on his slabs. I visit the Petersham fair regularly and his slabbed coins are around the same price as the raw coins other dealers are offering sometimes better.
If I can add one thing to this thread, is that it isn't all profit for those slabbing coins.
Take the example of the 1937 Crown. Here is the population report for KGVI Crowns in the 20 - 58 range.
http://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail.aspx?c=5055&t=2
With the cost of slabbing coming in around the $45 mark, the bluesheet of an AU58 @ $70, and currently @ $18.51 silver value, even if the you bought at silver prices, you're going to make under $10 on the coin.
So I don't think it's really a coin you would send over to slab unless if it were UNC, but there are 48 out of 187 total coins slabbed that did not meet the PCGS 'MS' grading.
So with just over 25% of coins coming back under MS, my thoughts are that many 'collectors' are also sending their own coins over, and finding out their 'UNC's were not really UNC at all...
QuoteIf I can add one thing to this thread, is that it isn't all profit for those slabbing coins.
I agree there may be a few coins that are really not worth the effort But IF there was NO profit in it then the dealers and everyone else wouldn't send the coins away.
Of course there IS a profit in it and yes it IS "value adding", I personally don't have an issue with that :ok:
Everyone has to make a living after all.
But the attitude of "that can't be real or it would be in a slab" is bloody annoying.
I have bought many coins in slabs at reasonable prices and have "Cracked them out" simply because I like to be able to handle and touch my coins and a 2x2 takes up way less space than a slab.
In my view the slabbed coins are aimed at the "Investor Collector" and not at the collectors that simply collect for their own enjoyment.
If (God forbid) I ever had to liquidate my collection I would get a large majority of them graded and slabbed by PCGS because I know I would get more for them.
Slabbing IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with collecting it is ALL about getting the best price for a coin, Simple as that :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22854' dateline='1374743741'QuoteIf I can add one thing to this thread, is that it isn't all profit for those slabbing coins.
I agree there may be a few coins that are really not worth the effort But IF there was NO profit in it then the dealers and everyone else wouldn't send the coins away.
Of course there IS a profit in it and yes it IS "value adding", I personally don't have an issue with that :ok:
Everyone has to make a living after all.
But the attitude of "that can't be real or it would be in a slab" is bloody annoying.
I have bought many coins in slabs at reasonable prices and have "Cracked them out" simply because I like to be able to handle and touch my coins and a 2x2 takes up way less space than a slab.
In my view the slabbed coins are aimed at the "Investor Collector" and not at the collectors that simply collect for their own enjoyment.
If (God forbid) I ever had to liquidate my collection I would get a large majority of them graded and slabbed by PCGS because I know I would get more for them.
Slabbing IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with collecting it is ALL about getting the best price for a coin, Simple as that :ok:
Slabbing doesn't always equate to value, take the below example a MS63 1937 crown for $150 which would equate to UNC/Choice-UNC, it would be hard finding a raw example at any auction for that price let alone factoring in the cost of grading. Then again if that same coin was MS64 it would be at least $300 although would probably be described the same by a dealer or auction house.
http://www.thepurplepenny.com/696,pcgs-ms63-australia-1937-crown-5s-uncirculated.html
I don't agree that good or genuine coins have to be slabbed, to me slabbing a fine 1923 half penny makes little to no sense, a coin like that I would prefer to have in a 2 x 2 or even in an album.
Quote from: 'dcoin' pid='22872' dateline='1374750617'Quote from: 'trout' pid='22854' dateline='1374743741'QuoteIf I can add one thing to this thread, is that it isn't all profit for those slabbing coins.
I agree there may be a few coins that are really not worth the effort But IF there was NO profit in it then the dealers and everyone else wouldn't send the coins away.
Of course there IS a profit in it and yes it IS "value adding", I personally don't have an issue with that :ok:
Everyone has to make a living after all.
But the attitude of "that can't be real or it would be in a slab" is bloody annoying.
I have bought many coins in slabs at reasonable prices and have "Cracked them out" simply because I like to be able to handle and touch my coins and a 2x2 takes up way less space than a slab.
In my view the slabbed coins are aimed at the "Investor Collector" and not at the collectors that simply collect for their own enjoyment.
If (God forbid) I ever had to liquidate my collection I would get a large majority of them graded and slabbed by PCGS because I know I would get more for them.
Slabbing IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with collecting it is ALL about getting the best price for a coin, Simple as that :ok:
Slabbing doesn't always equate to value, take the below example a MS63 1937 crown for $150 which would equate to UNC/Choice-UNC, it would be hard finding a raw example at any auction for that price let alone factoring in the cost of grading. Then again if that same coin was MS64 it would be at least $300 although would probably be described the same by a dealer or auction house.
http://www.thepurplepenny.com/696,pcgs-ms63-australia-1937-crown-5s-uncirculated.html
I don't agree that good or genuine coins have to be slabbed, to me slabbing a fine 1923 half penny makes little to no sense, a coin like that I would prefer to have in a 2 x 2 or even in an album.
With the proliferation of fake high value coins on the market I can understand the need for a TPG grading, It does cut out the BS sellers in the market place.
The 1923 1/2 penny and the 1930 penny are prime examples of the raw fake coins on ebay 24/7 and I personally wouldn't be comfortable buying one of these unless it was slabbed or has come from a dealer or person I trust implicitly :ok:
http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/
http://www.pcgs.com/News/Counterfeit-Pcgs-Holders
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Fake-PCGS-Holders/10000000006356027/g.html
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='22876' dateline='1374751592'http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/
http://www.pcgs.com/News/Counterfeit-Pcgs-Holders
HeHe, Like I said look at the coin not the bloody slab :ok:
yeah, but, there are bloody fake slabs
so sometimes, a person can't win in this market
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='22841' dateline='1374739017'Quote from: 'duggee27' pid='22824' dateline='1374728978'i have both raw and slabbed
either way if the coin is good enough i will buy it
but sooner or later i will get the better ones slabbed when i finish admiring them in their raw state such as my stunning 1966 half/penny - i reckon 66/67RD so my 'grandies' (none yet) can do what they like with them.
meanwhile am trying to control the buy buy disease
:good::dance2:
1966 halfpenny? ..........
lemme see it buster!! ha ha
correction .... thats 1963 ... got carried away with 666's
it's hard to get a really beautiful 1963 halfpenny
Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='22878' dateline='1374751850'yeah, but, there are bloody fake slabs
so sometimes, a person can't win in this market
Yes you can Mate, just buy your coins raw and IF you get an exceptional coin and you want it in a slab simply send it away and make a quid on it.
This slobbing thing in Aus is quite young and there ARE still some great raw coins out there.
All you have to do is beat the dealers in the race for them :ok:
Personally I prefer my coins to be accessible and NOT encased in plastic YUK.
If you are in this for the money Slobbing is the way to go :ok:
If you are in it for the pleasure then Bugger it, Get em raw after learning how to pick a fake and grade for yourself.:angel:
I'd just like to say that not all problem coins are raw, i've seen plenty of problem coin in slabs,i buy both slabs & raw but i do love the challenge to buy raw coins that will slab eventually in high MS.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22884' dateline='1374752707'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='22878' dateline='1374751850'yeah, but, there are bloody fake slabs
so sometimes, a person can't win in this market
Yes you can Mate, just buy your coins raw and IF you get an exceptional coin and you want it in a slab simply send it away and make a quid on it.
This slobbing thing in Aus is quite young and there ARE still some great raw coins out there.
All you have to do is beat the dealers in the race for them :ok:
Personally I prefer my coins to be accessible and NOT encased in plastic YUK.
If you are in this for the money Slobbing is the way to go :ok:
If you are in it for the pleasure then Bugger it, Get em raw after learning how to pick a fake and grade for yourself.:angel:
While you can probably make money slabbing coins you can also loose alot of money if you are wrong. For example you buy a gem florin which comes back ms63 or a unc 1925 penny which comes back as au58, not to mention the months it takes to get a coin graded.
QuoteWhile you can probably make money slabbing coins you can also loose alot of money if you are wrong. For example you buy a gem florin which comes back ms63 or a unc 1925 penny which comes back as au58, not to mention the months it takes to get a coin graded.
I think the people doing most of the slabbing are far too good at what they do to make such basic mistakes :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22898' dateline='1374781687'I think the people doing most of the slabbing are far too good at what they do to make such basic mistakes :ok:
Everyone makes mistakes. Anyone who tells you they've never made a mistake getting a coin slabbed is a liar or has sent very few. You only need to look at some of the slabs appearing on eBay now to understand that a lot of material people send is rubbish.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='22899' dateline='1374791294'Quote from: 'trout' pid='22898' dateline='1374781687'I think the people doing most of the slabbing are far too good at what they do to make such basic mistakes :ok:
Everyone makes mistakes. Anyone who tells you they've never made a mistake getting a coin slabbed is a liar or has sent very few. You only need to look at some of the slabs appearing on eBay now to understand that a lot of material people send is rubbish.
So it's not just a matter of getting the grade right the coin type is important as well.
I have noticed the 1966 proofs are doing particularly well slabbed.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22900' dateline='1374792828'So it's not just a matter of getting the grade right the coin type is important as well.
I have noticed the 1966 proofs are doing particularly well slabbed.
Some of them do. There's no point sending spotty or toned ones though.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='22930' dateline='1374827040'Quote from: 'trout' pid='22900' dateline='1374792828'So it's not just a matter of getting the grade right the coin type is important as well.
I have noticed the 1966 proofs are doing particularly well slabbed.
Some of them do. There's no point sending spotty or toned ones though.
:agreed:
nobody wants the toned 50 cent coins .
I was under the assumption that toning didn't affect the TPG's grade as long as all the underlying lustre is still there.
Ah well wrong again :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22931' dateline='1374827594'Quote from: 'markn' pid='22930' dateline='1374827040'Quote from: 'trout' pid='22900' dateline='1374792828'So it's not just a matter of getting the grade right the coin type is important as well.
I have noticed the 1966 proofs are doing particularly well slabbed.
Some of them do. There's no point sending spotty or toned ones though.
:agreed:
nobody wants the toned 50 cent coins .
I was under the assumption that toning didn't affect the TPG's grade as long as all the underlying lustre is still there.
Ah well wrong again :dash1:
Toning is a form of environmental damage so yes it does negatively affect the grading. The reason toned coins seem to grade higher is because most untoned coins have been cleaned (a light clean or dip won't result in a no-grade but the grade will be lowered). It takes exceptionally beautiful toning to earn a higher grading for a coin.
Quote from: 'trout' pid='22877' dateline='1374751736'Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='22876' dateline='1374751592'http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/
http://www.pcgs.com/News/Counterfeit-Pcgs-Holders
HeHe, Like I said look at the coin not the bloody slab :ok:
I hear that a lot, but if that were true there would be no need for slabs.
Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='22804' dateline='1374716540'Yes, you'll find that the main reason many of the more experienced collectors are switching over to slabs isn't because they love the plastic, but rather because it's the only way to source quality coins in today's market.
Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='23014' dateline='1374895863'Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
If you have the option to attend these auctions, its easy to pick the better coins. It's the ones the dealers are bidding on :angel:
There certainly aren't lots of quality pre-decimal or gold coins appearing at public auction as of late. The November 2012 Noble's auction was the last major auction I attended that had a good offering of quality pre-decimal.
Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='23014' dateline='1374895863'Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
Go and look at them. Catalogue "high grade" often bears little relation to actual high grade.
Quote from: 'markn' pid='23040' dateline='1374914964'Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='23014' dateline='1374895863'Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
Go and look at them. Catalogue "high grade" often bears little relation to actual high grade.
So what are we saying here?
Have ALL the dealers high quality coins gone in slabs?
That only leaves the odd gem to be found on eBay for us plebs and the dealers are actively bidding on these to add to their slabbed inventory :dash1:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='23044' dateline='1374918700'Quote from: 'markn' pid='23040' dateline='1374914964'Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='23014' dateline='1374895863'Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
Go and look at them. Catalogue "high grade" often bears little relation to actual high grade.
So what are we saying here?
Have ALL the dealers high quality coins gone in slabs?
That only leaves the odd gem to be found on eBay for us plebs and the dealers are actively bidding on these to add to their slabbed inventory :dash1:
I am saying that you have a much better idea of a the quality of a coin when it is in a PCGS slab than when you do when it is raw and described as "gem unc" in an Australian coin auction catalogue. My thinking is that PCGS has graded just a small fraction of good Aussie coins, there are still good 'uns out there.
Quotethere are still good 'uns out there.
:yahoo: thank the gods for that :good:
Quote from: 'markn' pid='23040' dateline='1374914964'Quote from: 'MobOfRoos' pid='23014' dateline='1374895863'Have a look at the Roxbury, Noble or Downie auctions and you will find lots of high grade coins unslabbed.
Go and look at them. Catalogue "high grade" often bears little relation to actual high grade.
I have looked at them , and that is why I only included the above three auction houses. I have found their grading very reliable. IAG are another good one where I have bid online and picked up some very nice high grade coins which don't have the huge TPG price premium.
In the end it is each to their own but I think it is inaccurate to say that all the nice coins are in slabs. That is clearly not the case. For those of us who don't obsess about whether a coin is MS63 or MS64 there are still a lot of nice unslabbed coins out there.
If you're so confident TPG coins have huge price premiums then why don't you send a few coins over to PCGS? Surely it's only reasonable to make an attempt to verify your claims before declaring them as fact.
Every collector I've met who has sent a reasonable amount of coins to PCGS has ended up supporting PCGS, most of them stopped buying uncertified coins altogether. There's a certain realisation that kicks in when you get your grades back and you realise if you had bought PCGS graded coins only, you could've had the coins in the same condition for less than half the price.
There are good coins that appear at auction, but they go for multiples of the estimates. It is extremely rare for a good coin to go unnoticed.
this was very interesting and some really good points made, thanks team :good: