i see so many sellers on ebay, selling single coins and saying they are either UNC or specimen but all out of a mint set. I always thought out of mint set, it's UNC. Out of proof set, it's proof. So what exactly is a Specimen?
Pardon me if I have asked this before. I have a short memory
I thought that a specimen was a regular circulation coin that is struck with extra pressure and or struck more than once.
As I understand it, uncirculated specimen coins are found in uncirculated sets.
They used to call the coins in the wedding sets specimen coins. It appears most mint set coins are not specimen coins but selected from coins minted for circulation.
A specimen is not a grade, it's a method of manufacture. Specimens used to be carefully handled and struck regular circulation issues that were kept for mint records or as special presentation pieces. I guess they still strike specimens for mint records but also for general release (as the wedding sets used to have). Specimens, like those in the wedding sets do not neccesarily use specially prepared planchets or they'd be called proofs. But they might be struck multiple times and are handled carefully just like proofs. Some specimens from earlier times could really be called proofs, so I guess the definition is a little fuzzy around the edges.
To break it down, modern coins which you see on eBay from “mint sets†are specimens (I think that mint sets in sealed packaging came out in 1984? Then onwards)
Mint set coins (known as specimens â€" when sold individually) are in fact as markn and others said, pressed in the minting press several times to created a clearer image on the coin, and probably has more pressure in the press too.
These coins should have no marks on them as they are handled with gloves at the mint.
Specimen can mean anything from an example of a coin, to how it was manufactured and presented in packaging. Everyone has there own meaning, so I would not take the word of people on eBay. Take the time to learn coins, the years they were made and what the mint released.
Some people sell coins that were taken from circulation as Uncirculated, and even try to palm them off as specimen, be very careful.
Quote from: 'Australian coin' pid='1298' dateline='1349656111'To break it down, modern coins which you see on eBay from “mint sets†are specimens (I think that mint sets in sealed packaging came out in 1984? Then onwards)
Mint set coins (known as specimens â€" when sold individually) are in fact as markn and others said, pressed in the minting press several times to created a clearer image on the coin, and probably has more pressure in the press too.
These coins should have no marks on them as they are handled with gloves at the mint.
IMHO
a) Mint sets are not specimen.
b) Taking them out of the mint packaging does not thereby make them specimen.
c) mint sets are not pressed several times. You only have to look at the quality of the coins to see that.
d) I don't think that what Markn and others were saying.
c) I don't think Markn said mint sets are specimen coins.
Early Mint Sets were supposed to contain specimen coins. I don't know when that changed (early 80's?). What we know as a Mint set now do not contain specimen coins and if you look closely at their quality they don't really prove to be any better than circulation coins from rolls. Same as say a coin from a PNC or a carded 50c, just an unc coin. Coins in wedding sets pre 2010(?) are real specimens, you can see that in their quality.
If you want a specimen coin, buy the Wedding sets (the ones before the RAM ruined them by going proof. I believe them to be sleepers and VERY cheap. I recall one of the sales persons at the RAM trying to convince a purchaser that the coins were proof. When I gently pointed out the were in fact 'specimens', he told me he was a RAM employee and knew what he was talking about. I simply turned over the package, showed him the 'RAM blurb' and told him that he didn't.
Sorry AC but mint set coins are rubbish. Definitely not specimens. Supposedly mint sets up until the early 1980's were specimens but there doesn't seem to be any concrete information confirming or denying this. Other than wedding sets pre 2010 the only circulation design coins that I'm sure are specimens are 1970 Cook 50c in plastic cases..
Quote from: 'Graham' pid='1308' dateline='1349663388'When I gently pointed out the were in fact 'specimens', he told me he was a RAM employee and knew what he was talking about. I simply turned over the package, showed him the 'RAM blurb' and told him that he didn't.
:scratch_one-s_head:You'd think an employee would have at least read the back of their own product.
The reading I have done suggests that specimen and proof used to be used pretty interchangeably, I don't think that can be the case these days.
Had a looksee at the RAM page and they don’t make modern specimen coins, they make UNC.
Uncirculated (UNC)
Uncirculated coins are manufactured in much the same way as circulated coins except for the following:
More attention and time is given to the preparation of the die surface finish,
The coins are struck with greater pressure than the circulating coins to improve the sharpness of the design.
More care and attention is applied at each step in the coining process to minimise damage, consequently a much lower production rate of about 30,000 coins per press per day is achieved.
Uncirculated coins are packaged individually into plastic sleeves, presentation folders or occasionally presentation cases.
Well there you go.
OK That's pretty much how I see it too and I definitely agree with this - c) mint sets are not pressed several times. You only have to look at the quality of the coins to see that.
I have often wondered how sellers can say a coin is a specimen, when they have taken it out of a mint set. Some of the coins I can see in my mint sets are terrible. On the other hand, the Wedding Set coins are beautiful. I wonder who the RAM asked about changing the Wedding Sets to proof coins? They sure didn't ask me.
Thanks for the replies.
Quote from: 'lacey' pid='1317' dateline='1349674808'I wonder who the RAM asked about changing the Wedding Sets to proof coins? They sure didn't ask me.
Or me. The Wedding set coins were the most beautiful decimal coins around IMHO and something distinctly different from the rest of the RAM detritus they are pumping out these days. Now they are just a proof set in different packaging. Bad move RAM.
We didn't invite the RAM to join the forum, should we?
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='1320' dateline='1349680579'We didn't invite the RAM to join the forum, should we?
Will they???
Why bother asking PP. They didn't ask us if they could change the Wedding Sets.
Mark I think when sales of wedding sets start to decline, maybe they will pull their fingers out and get cracking, making them like they used to. Like you said, bad move.
Gawd.
:mafia:
Quote from: 'purplepennyhunter' pid='1320' dateline='1349680579'We didn't invite the RAM to join the forum, should we?
My oath we should, that way we can give them direction as to what collectors REALLY want :ok:
they already know about the aussie coin forums, I have sent them several invites before, they are not representing RAM as such, but individuals may be here
I have been told that when the RAM did that years ago - i.e. get involved in forums, it was a disaster and is now on the 'do not go there' list
Quote'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll
Whatever Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) was on might be worth trying. He also wrote Alice in Wonderland.
Anyway, to paraphrase Humpty Dumpty "A specimen coin is what I say it is; no more, no less".
Jeff
bluesheet
specimen: A coin struck from an early circulation die state, not intended for circulation
then this: (link below)
Proofs, Patterns and Specimens.
Proof coins represent the very best of the minter's art. Today, they are manufactured from hand-polished dies, are virtually flawless and are superby presented in customised packaging, with strict limits on production.
Originally they were trial coins, hand struck at the start of a mintage, in order that any flaws could be detected and rectified. Then they became a special sample, kept as an example of each mintage. Today, they are considered numismatic coins - of interest to coin collectors - and are sold at fixed prices consistent with their quality and rarity.
For most Australian pre-decimal proof and pattern issues (particularly gold sovereigns and half sovereigns), mint records were poorly kept. Confusion has resulted from references to Proof, Pattern and sometimes Specimen coin strikes, all of which seem to have similar qualities. To overcome these description difficulties, a proof or specimen coin is now defined as a specially prepared coin which also has normal circulating coins issued with the same date and die types. On the other hand, a Pattern is an issue of a particular date and die types for which no circulating coins were issued. Patterns may, and often do, show slight differences from circulation issues as they were usually intended as examples of a change in proposed design,
http://www.australianstamp.com/Coin-web/history/grading.htm