Just wondering if anyone knows if any of the these Canadian minted 20s would have ended up in mint rolls. Thanks
Quote from: 'gregk' pid='1058' dateline='1349038443'Just wondering if anyone knows if any of the these Canadian minted 20s would have ended up in mint rolls. Thanks
:welcome:
I'm pretty sure they've been discussed on another forum and I think there was a link to a roll on Ebay, but can't remember when it was. Someone is sure to know. :winkextra:
McDonalds said they did.
As these coins were minted in Canada, they were transported in bulk to Australia. The RAM only rolled coins they minted, so the Canadian coins were rolled by the Reserve Bank. For this reason you will not find a 3 1/2 claw in any RAM roll. It may be that some of the other commercial banks rolled these coins - I have seen Perth 1981 2c coins in ANZ rolls rather than Reserve Bank wrappers. However, I have not seen any of 1981 20c Canadian coins in these wrappers. The 1981 20c was also minted in Wales, so these coins would also be found in Reserve Bank rolls. So it shouldn't be assumed that Reserve Bank wrapper necessarily means Canadian coins. 1981 can get quite complicated!
:welcome:
Wow eccentric! For a first post that was very knowledgeable
Sorry - I have been 'lurking' for some time! Thanks for the welcome. 1981 has special interest for me so I have done a bit of research on it. I believe there have been a few Reserve Bank rolls that contained all 3 1/2 claw coins. However, it seems most were put straight into circulation and this accounts for their rarity in high grade.
Yeah, McDonalds pretty much agrees with all that: the Wales and Canada coins are both only in the RBA rolls and the Canberra ones are in RAM rolls.
Quote from: 'eccentric' pid='1067' dateline='1349047103'As these coins were minted in Canada, they were transported in bulk to Australia. The RAM only rolled coins they minted, so the Canadian coins were rolled by the Reserve Bank. For this reason you will not find a 3 1/2 claw in any RAM roll. It may be that some of the other commercial banks rolled these coins - I have seen Perth 1981 2c coins in ANZ rolls rather than Reserve Bank wrappers. However, I have not seen any of 1981 20c Canadian coins in these wrappers. The 1981 20c was also minted in Wales, so these coins would also be found in Reserve Bank rolls. So it shouldn't be assumed that Reserve Bank wrapper necessarily means Canadian coins. 1981 can get quite complicated!
Hey, that was tops, thanks very much for a most informative reply, know what to look out for!!
Hey all
I stumbled upon this 1981 20c when I was doing a bit of noodling. Still trying to get my eye in for this kind of stuff. I know there were a heap minted but would I be right in saying that it is a Canadian minted one?
(http://i47.tinypic.com/s6rqsz.jpg)
(http://i50.tinypic.com/212a9lf.jpg)
Yes that's the one, and the condition is bette then most you'd find actually! Nice
Sweet, thanks Aaron! I'm getting better at this :) I would have thought it was in pretty bad shape though
For some reason it's difficult to get them in high grade, they don't really demand a premium unless theyre in aUnc+ condition but I collect them anyway
So what would you pay for a premium choice unc in todays market.
Unc around $80, CH Unc, not too sure
Learn to recognise the obverse, as it's very distinctive and looks different from the obverse of other 20 cents from that era.
Quote from: 'drakesterling' pid='3917' dateline='1353914946'Learn to recognise the obverse, as it's very distinctive and looks different from the obverse of other 20 cents from that era.
I agree, the eyebrows are totaly diferant on the Canadian coin :good:
You don't have to look at the reverse and strain your eyes to pick this coin out:yahoo:
They have become harder to find even in circulated condition from what i've been getting, anyone else recognized the same?
I know a group of 1981 Canadas sold for a surprising premium over face in a Roxbury's sale a few months ago. They were very circulated, so someone out there must agree with you.
I haven't been specifically looking for them, but they have always turned up in change from time to time.
Seems weird because only last year I was getting them left right as centre, not this year though
Has anyone got a bunch of 1981 31/2 claws that could do a little experiment for me?
I think I may have found another difference with the Canadian coin.
But I need a few more just to be sure.
Any help would be appreciated.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33053' dateline='1383226722'Has anyone got a bunch of 1981 31/2 claws that could do a little experiment for me?
Hundreds.. do tell?
I can assist here also.
THIS IS NOT A 3 1/2 CLAW!! It just shows the line,
See that line which is just above the claws, & just to the left of the 2, that forms part of the platypus body,
Can you see any difference between the Canadian 3 1/2claw?
& the other two the Wales & RAM coins?
If so what?
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw_zpse0558cfb.gif)
The Canadian minted coin is easy to define.
But not on the reverse, the obverse has a more definitive eyebrow :ok:
Quote from: 'trout' pid='33259' dateline='1383312705'The Canadian minted coin is easy to define.
But not on the reverse, the obverse has a more definitive eyebrow :ok:
Yeah I know that, I just think that maybe this might be something extra.
Just like to see what Fulvio & Sulla have to say.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33257' dateline='1383312173'Can you see any difference between the Canadian 3 1/2claw?
Naturally, I have no 81's that aren't 3-1/2 claws, so I can't actually compare right now.
However...
Comparing to some other years, 2007, 2008, 2010... they all have a rounded body, which sort of flows into the field.
The 1981's, at least the variety, all have a hard, sharp line, like in your pic, but not extending all the way to the wave crests. In fact, on the better examples, it looks like a piece of the body is missing.. so its a half line.
These UNC 1982's on the other hand, also have the hard line, but it is complete, extending from one wave crest to the other.
Next step will be seeing when the design was changed I guess.
Fulvio wrote,
"The 1981's, at least the variety, all have a hard, sharp line, like in your pic, but not extending all the way to the wave crests. In fact, on the better examples, it looks like a piece of the body is missing.. so its a half line."
That's what I wanted to hear.
It is only the 1981 3 1/2 that has this particular half line.
I don't think it's die fill as all my 3 1/2 are the same & it sounds like all yours are the same.
Could anybody else with 3 1/2's check theirs as well,
it would be good to get as many confirmations as possible.
In fact that hard, sharp line no longer exists on the twenty cent it stopped in 2000 when it became the rounded body which flows into the field.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='33264' dateline='1383321790'Quote from: 'interest' pid='33257' dateline='1383312173'Can you see any difference between the Canadian 3 1/2claw?
Naturally, I have no 81's that aren't 3-1/2 claws, so I can't actually compare right now.
However...
Comparing to some other years, 2007, 2008, 2010... they all have a rounded body, which sort of flows into the field.
The 1981's, at least the variety, all have a hard, sharp line, like in your pic, but not extending all the way to the wave crests. In fact, on the better examples, it looks like a piece of the body is missing.. so its a half line.
These UNC 1982's on the other hand, also have the hard line, but it is complete, extending from one wave crest to the other.
Next step will be seeing when the design was changed I guess.
Thanks Fulvio
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33327' dateline='1383377937'In fact that hard, sharp line no longer exists on the twenty cent it stopped in 2000 when it became the rounded body which flows into the field.
Isn't it funny how we stare at millions of coins day in and day out, many of us looking for tiny errors at huge magnifications... and yet deliberate design changes slip by virtually unnoticed?
Thank you for bringing this up, mate.
Very good thread this one I have enjoyed it so far with the interesting comments and pics.
I like your work interest and gregk for starting this.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='33329' dateline='1383378578'Quote from: 'interest' pid='33327' dateline='1383377937'In fact that hard, sharp line no longer exists on the twenty cent it stopped in 2000 when it became the rounded body which flows into the field.
Isn't it funny how we stare at millions of coins day in and day out, many of us looking for tiny errors at huge magnifications... and yet deliberate design changes slip by virtually unnoticed?
Thank you for bringing this up, mate.
That's okay.
But having said that, I am more excited regarding the shortened
"hard sharp line" on the Canadian 3 1/2 claws.
Of all the pages & pages written about the 3 1/2 claws, this seemed to have been missed.
I have read everything I could find on the 3 1/2 claws & have not found this to be mentioned anywhere.
All of the 1981 coins I have pulled out of rolls & circulation
(the RAM, the Royal Canadian Mint & the Royal Mint.)
The Canadian mint is the only one with the shortened line.
But I would still like for as many people to check theirs for feedback
1981 Canadian 3 1/2 Claw left, 1981 RAM right
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw-1_zps1e9a7eb1.gif)(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw_zpse0558cfb.gif)
Quote from: 'runway' pid='33340' dateline='1383393720'Very good thread this one I have enjoyed it so far with the interesting comments and pics.
I like your work interest and gregk for starting this.
Thanks runway, do you have any you could check?
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33343' dateline='1383398540'But having said that, I am more excited regarding the shortened
"hard sharp line" on the Canadian 3 1/2 claws.
Mmmmm... while I agree that its remarkable everyone's missed this for over thirty years, I don't know I'd be getting toooo excited.
Clearly the dies were filled in that region. How and why we'll probably never know, but the fact that the fill extends both sides of the 2, covering the claw and this part of the body isn't really special on its own, given that every example is the same. Its just the way the dies were cut, and isn't two separate errors.
Now if there were some coins that had one without the other, THAT would be something. :)
So that line isn't perfectly formed on Canadian 20c pieces?
I've got a few unsorted 1981 20c pieces set aside that I'll have a look at when I get some time.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='33398' dateline='1383468739'So that line isn't perfectly formed on Canadian 20c pieces?
We haven't determined that yet.
It affects 3-1/2 claws.
It may or may not also affect other Canadian coins, and it may or may not affect other 1981's. We'll have to wait until people can check and report in.
C'mon people please check your 1981 3 1/2 claws the more the better
The coin I have shows a "feint "line for the Canada 3.5 Claw 20c piece. Normal 20c Piece shows a well defined line.
Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='33471' dateline='1383561483'The coin I have shows a "feint "line for the Canada 3.5 Claw 20c piece. Normal 20c Piece shows a well defined line.
Thanks Goldie.
There's another one come on folks check em out for me please.
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='33405' dateline='1383474508'Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='33398' dateline='1383468739'So that line isn't perfectly formed on Canadian 20c pieces?
We haven't determined that yet.
It affects 3-1/2 claws.
It may or may not also affect other Canadian coins, and it may or may not affect other 1981's. We'll have to wait until people can check and report in.
How many of your coins did you check Fulvio?
Were they all the same?
Surely there must be other collectors with 1981 3-1/2 claws coins.
If this forum can prove that this is strictly a Canadian variation
how cool would that be.
To pick up something that has been missed by all the coin experts for over 30 years.
Be part of it.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33785' dateline='1384005073'How many of your coins did you check Fulvio?
Were they all the same?
A couple hundred. All identical.
I had no 4-claws to check, Canadian or otherwise.
Just found a Canadian 4-claw, and it has the full bodyline.
Add about twenty non-canadians.. also all full bodylines.
So only the 3-1/2 claws have the gap.
I had a look at 14 of these I had put aside and I think you're right, though with some it's quite hard to tell.
Looks like there was a bit of variability in the length of the line too.
Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='38417' dateline='1388363563'Looks like there was a bit of variability in the length of the line too.
Strike pressure will affect that.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33441' dateline='1383538932'C'mon people please check your 1981 3 1/2 claws the more the better
Canada 31/2 Claw Rev.I'll post this image on that "Gap" thread as well.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0009-cropA700_zps16e1f177.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/ford_prefect/Australian%20Coin%20Forum/Canon%2040D%20Camera/IMG_0004-cropA700_zps4ed1c54f.jpg)
Thanks fordprefect.
Great pictures, very interested in the shortened line of the platypus's body.
In fact after going through as much reading & research as I can on the 1981 20 cent piece. (Some good bedtime reading if you have a back issue of Coin & Banknote mag Volume 9 Number 7 August 2006 p.p. 27)
I am (wait for it) going to state that this shortened line which forms part of the platypus's body is only on the royal Canadian minted 20 cent reverse die that has been deliberately altered to obtain this effect.
The other three most noted differences.
1. The curved/Fish tail based letters 1's in the date ELH II will normally be a good indicator of the curve.
2. The eyebrow/Nostrils
3. The paw under No2 it will have a short half claw closest to the body with the next 3 claws (L-R) being full length.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='46358' dateline='1397310283'I am (wait for it) going to state that this shortened line which forms part of the platypus's body is only on the royal Canadian minted 20 cent reverse die that has been deliberately altered to obtain this effect.
The question still remains, is this on all the Canadian coins, or only the 3-1/2 claws? Clearly the 3-1/2 claw is a different die, and all coins will exhibit the various features. But what about the 4-claws? Are there any differences with them, so that there are three, rather than two, different varieties?
How rare are the Canadian 4 claws - any rough idea?
Pedro
Quote from: 'Pedro' pid='46378' dateline='1397357480'How rare are the Canadian 4 claws - any rough idea?
Not rare at all.
1981: 65,503,000
1981: 50,000,000, Wales
1981: 50,000,000, Canada v-3.5 Claw
The vast majority of those 50m are normal.
There was a great article in CAB mag a few years ago
No surprises - the five 3 1/2 claws I can lay my hands on readily all had the shortened line beside the 2.
Pedro
It is far too common to just be one die,
If you look at the fact that the RCM minted 50,000,000 coins they would have needed between 50 & 200 working dies, ( a die will produce on average of 250,000 coins, sure some produce up near 1,000,000) but lets say 250,000 for arguments sake.
The RM also minted 50,000,000 coins, another 50 to 200 working dies,
Oh & the RAM produced 165,503,000 there would be another
165 to 662 more dies.
WOW that adds up to be between 265 & 1062 working dies.
But the average number would be 664 dies, (if my maths are correct, & it is late at night)
So there is no way that the RAM would have produced that many dies,
they would have sent a Master Die, (positive tool) or (HUB) from which the negative dies are made.
Don't know about the four claws, except to say that there are
two variations, the RAM & the RM
& they are often sold as 3.5 claws to unsuspecting people.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33441' dateline='1383538932'C'mon people please check your 1981 3 1/2 claws the more the better
Some years ago I acquired eight examples, noted some info on the 2x2's and consigned them to the darkness, obviously without too much sinking in. Just dug them out. Six are noted as type 1e, these are clearly 3 1/2 claws and display the same weak line to the left of the 2. Of the other two coins, both in UNC, one is noted as being type 1d (i) rev. with dot over R of AUSTRALIA, the other is a type 1d (ii) with reverse die chip. Both of these appear to be claytons 3 1/2 claws i.e. it depends on the angle of light refraction whether or not you see a half claw or a full claw. The thing is though, both display what appears to be the same weak line to the left of the 2. I only had two four claw coins to compare with, one of which is UNC, and both display a distinct fuller / heavier line.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='46408' dateline='1397399527'It is far too common to just be one die
:agreed:
While I don't keep stats like Goldy, I do keep every 3-1/2 claw I find. Its a lot of coins, maybe 5-10% of the '81's I've seen, though rapidly declining.
For sure there's more than one die involved. And clearly more than one hob. Hence my question about whether the other differences are on 4-claws.
If I were going to speculate, I would say that the short claw was a deliberate mintmark. But something went wrong somewhere, and another hob(s) was used by the RCM, producing the variations in their coins. What I find odd however is that there is no similar mintmark for the RM coins, which are identical to the RAM coins.
And I also wonder about the shape of the canadian coins. Is it all down to the planchets being identifiably different, or is it also die variation? And if it is the dies, why are the RCM 4-claws distinguishable from the RAM/RM coins?
And while we're at it, why are we still debating this three decades later? Surely it should have been analysed to death by now?
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='46410' dateline='1397402240'Quote from: 'interest' pid='46408' dateline='1397399527'It is far too common to just be one die
And while we're at it, why are we still debating this three decades later? Surely it should have been analysed to death by now?
Tell you why, it's because I seem to have found something on a coin that has been missed for over thirty years, even after the coin has been debated about for three decades, & analysed to death.
No coin expert, like your good self have found.
I felt a bit chuffed about it that's why.
But I'll stop now.
Thanks to all that sent me photo's of their coins & comments, appreciate that.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='46429' dateline='1397447030'I felt a bit chuffed about it that's why.
But I'll stop now.
Nonono.. you misunderstand me. Its not that you brought it up, or that the discussion continues. I think its remarkable that you noticed something everyone else overlooked for all those years, and you should feel very chuffed.
Rather its that I would expect that by now all the details of what happened when and where would be known, and probably the who and why as well. We certainly know in excruciating detail about other coins of arguably less import than these.
Yet I've seen no explanation for the Canadian coins being concave. I've seen people who thought all 50m were 3-1/2 claws. I've seen no analysis of why the metal looks different. And so on and so forth.
Surely the answers MUST be out there somewhere already?
Quote from: 'eccentric' pid='1067' dateline='1349047103'As these coins were minted in Canada, they were transported in bulk to Australia. The RAM only rolled coins they minted, so the Canadian coins were rolled by the Reserve Bank. For this reason you will not find a 3 1/2 claw in any RAM roll. It may be that some of the other commercial banks rolled these coins - I have seen Perth 1981 2c coins in ANZ rolls rather than Reserve Bank wrappers. However, I have not seen any of 1981 20c Canadian coins in these wrappers. The 1981 20c was also minted in Wales, so these coins would also be found in Reserve Bank rolls. So it shouldn't be assumed that Reserve Bank wrapper necessarily means Canadian coins. 1981 can get quite complicated!
Absolutely ... and a great informative post
sorry to revive an old thread but how much is one of these worth in mint state condition?
I have been offered several from a roll and have no idea on value. I also note that pcgs don't seem to recognised this variety, why is that?
I have just checked and I have PCGS graded coin of MS63.
I brought it Raw in June 2006 for $63 that I thought was fair at the time. I got it slabbed a while back.
And yes Serial - when I got this slabbed PCGS did not recognise it as a variety. I'm hoping that they will in the future and I can send it back.
I hope the quality of these pictures is OK - I don't take photos of them often.
'81 3.5 claw MS63
(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h322/australianmale/MS6335Claw.jpg)
'81 Uncirculated
(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h322/australianmale/Normal81.jpg)
'81 3.5 claw *Proof*
(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h322/australianmale/Proof81.jpg)
unfortunately I missed out, he had another offer of $45 each and he had 17 of them from a mint roll but I wasn't confident spending that much when I don't know the value. well maybe next time
I see the 3.5 claw that Downies have on their examples of 20cent varieties also has the shortened part of the body
downies 3.5 (http://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=2968)
Makes me even more convinced.
Hmmmm...Re the piccies of the 3½ claws, one has the ½ Claw on the left, the other on the right. Surely one of them is not a real 3½ Claw, but just due to a filled die. I suspect it might be the 1st one, but I could be wrong.
OK, I just looked at the Downies Brochure and IF they've got it right, the ring-in is the Proof one shown above.
Quote from: 'interest' pid='33343' dateline='1383398540'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='33329' dateline='1383378578'Quote from: 'interest' pid='33327' dateline='1383377937'In fact that hard, sharp line no longer exists on the twenty cent it stopped in 2000 when it became the rounded body which flows into the field.
Isn't it funny how we stare at millions of coins day in and day out, many of us looking for tiny errors at huge magnifications... and yet deliberate design changes slip by virtually unnoticed?
Thank you for bringing this up, mate.
That's okay.
But having said that, I am more excited regarding the shortened
"hard sharp line" on the Canadian 3 1/2 claws.
Of all the pages & pages written about the 3 1/2 claws, this seemed to have been missed.
I have read everything I could find on the 3 1/2 claws & have not found this to be mentioned anywhere.
All of the 1981 coins I have pulled out of rolls & circulation
(the RAM, the Royal Canadian Mint & the Royal Mint.)
The Canadian mint is the only one with the shortened line.
But I would still like for as many people to check theirs for feedback
1981 Canadian 3 1/2 Claw left, 1981 RAM right
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw-1_zps1e9a7eb1.gif)(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw_zpse0558cfb.gif)
Quote from: 'runway' pid='33340' dateline='1383393720'Very good thread this one I have enjoyed it so far with the interesting comments and pics.
I like your work interest and gregk for starting this.
Thanks runway, do you have any you could check?
Hey Interest I've been intrigued and followed all the articles ever written about these 1981 20c
As a young boy back in 81 I tucked away every shiny new coin and I just recently sorted them and did find some 3 half claws,no images yet
Quote from: 'runway' pid='64431' dateline='1419605096'Quote from: 'interest' pid='33343' dateline='1383398540'Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='33329' dateline='1383378578'Quote from: 'interest' pid='33327' dateline='1383377937'In fact that hard, sharp line no longer exists on the twenty cent it stopped in 2000 when it became the rounded body which flows into the field.
Isn't it funny how we stare at millions of coins day in and day out, many of us looking for tiny errors at huge magnifications... and yet deliberate design changes slip by virtually unnoticed?
Thank you for bringing this up, mate.
That's okay.
But having said that, I am more excited regarding the shortened
"hard sharp line" on the Canadian 3 1/2 claws.
Of all the pages & pages written about the 3 1/2 claws, this seemed to have been missed.
I have read everything I could find on the 3 1/2 claws & have not found this to be mentioned anywhere.
All of the 1981 coins I have pulled out of rolls & circulation
(the RAM, the Royal Canadian Mint & the Royal Mint.)
The Canadian mint is the only one with the shortened line.
But I would still like for as many people to check theirs for feedback
1981 Canadian 3 1/2 Claw left, 1981 RAM right
(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw-1_zps1e9a7eb1.gif)(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb22/interest88/claw_zpse0558cfb.gif)
Quote from: 'runway' pid='33340' dateline='1383393720'Very good thread this one I have enjoyed it so far with the interesting comments and pics.
I like your work interest and gregk for starting this.
Thanks runway, do you have any you could check?
Hey Interest I've been intrigued and followed all the articles ever written about these 1981 20c
As a young boy back in 81 I tucked away every shiny new coin and I just recently sorted them and did find some 3 half claws,no images yet
Hi RW so in all the articles you have read has this little line ever been mentioned?
First I've heard about it Interest?
These 81 20c are intriguing and I love the history and research people are doing